39. Leading a World of Social Change through Philanthropy – Megan Thomas from Catalyst of San Diego & Imperial Counties

On the 39th  episode of Immigration Today! Angeline Chen welcomes Megan Thomas,  president & CEO of Catalyst of San Diego & Imperial Counties.  Megan has a passion for helping people and she joined Catalyst because it sits at the intersection of philanthropy and social good. Catalyst is a network of a couple hundred funders and grant makers with a mission to help educate, lead and invest in environmental issues, food security, border issues and more, to promote social change. One of Catalyst's focuses is in border work as the community they serve in San Diego and Imperial County has a strong border identity. They work with many grassroots organizations who are the first point of contact for many immigrants entering the United States or who reside in Tijuana. There has been attention to border issues on the philanthropy side during Trump’s family separations and the current arrival of asylum seekers. Catalyst continues to do great work and hopes to continue building an equitable, impactful, and effective social change ecosystem.

As CEO, Megan provides strategic leadership and partnership to the entire Catalyst staff, board, members, and community partners. She oversees Catalyst’s facilitation of collaborative efforts among its funder members and other stakeholders; leads the production of philanthropy and impact investing skills-building and issue based learning; and spearheads Catalyst’s work related to championing equity and opportunity. She strengthens Imperial and San Diego County communities through shared learning and pooled and aligned funding strategies, and initiatives fiscally sponsored by Catalyst. 

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Transcript

0:15

Hello, everyone. It's Angeline Chen. Welcome to Immigration Today, where I interview leaders, advocates, experts, and volunteers in immigration and immigrant rights on the issues, their experiences, and how you can make a difference. Welcome Today we have Megan Thomas. Megan Thomas is the president and CEO of Catalyst San Diego. She provides strategic leadership and partnership to the entire Catalyst staff, board members, and community partners. Megan oversees Catalyst's facilitation of collaborative efforts among its funder members and other stakeholders, leads the production of philanthropy and impact investing skills, building, and issue based learning. And spearheads catalyst work related to championing equity and opportunity. She strengthens Imperial and San Diego County communities through shared learning and pulled in a line funding strategies and initiatives, fiscally sponsored by catalyst. Megan brings 20 years of experience in the nonprofit and philanthropic fields to this role, having most recently served as executive director. Of San Diego Coast Keeper, where she built partnerships among the nonprofit. Business and public sectors to advance environmental goals across San Diego County. Megan received her bachelor of science in business administration from Georgetown university and her master's in business administration from Yale school of management. She serves on the California dignity for families grant advisory committee at grantmakers concerned with immigrants and refugees, the racial equity committee of the United philanthropy forum and the board of trustees at the museum of us. Megan. Thank you so much for joining. Thank you for inviting me. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Yes, me too. Is it okay if we jump right into the questions? Let's jump. Okay, awesome. Thank you. So let us know a little bit about you and why, why do you do this work? Like, how does philanthropy, you know, how is philanthropy drawn to you? Yeah, um, I think like a lot of people, uh, I landed in philanthropy as a way to, to Do the work that I was doing, but I never woke up and said, you know what? I'm going to either be a ballerina or a marine biologist or a philanthropy infrastructure executive, like that was never in my language. Um, but it's, it's really good to be here. So my name is Megan Thomas. My pronouns are she, her, a get, and I have the honor of serving as the president and CEO at Catalyst of San Diego and Imperial counties. Uh, and, uh, I have been with this organization for a little over eight and a half years now. And, um, so the organization has evolved. I have evolved. Uh, we've, we've grown a lot together. Uh, but I grew up here. So I was born and raised in San Diego County. So as far to the south and west in our country as you can get. Nice. Spent about 10 or 12 years on the East Coast. I left the region to go to school in Washington, D. C. and stayed to work there for a little while. I've actually worked at the National Geographic Society, which allow. I highly recommend. It was super fun. I never got sent to any, uh, incredible, uh, foreign destination with, uh, like, ironically, the only trip that I ever, uh, did for work was to a conference in San Diego. Okay. So I got, I got to see my parents. That was nice. Um, but then I went to grad school and after that I knew, you know, the likelihood of putting down roots like starts to happen. You think you're gonna build a career, maybe you'll build a family, you'll certainly build out your sort of support network. So I came home. I really wanted to be in this place that I love my family is here for the most part. This is my place. These are my people. And so I, I did you, you were, you know, naming my bio I worked for an environmental advocacy organization for a little while before I landed here. And the reason that I came to this organization, uh, which does sit at the intersection of philanthropy and social good, um, to activate, uh, private dollars for public good, um, was that my skill set at the time was in bringing folks together around shared purpose. That Coast Keeper, uh, that organization is an incredible educational, um, and advocacy organization, which meant that a lot of times we were building tables where, uh, people with a lot of different viewpoints on, in that case, water pollution, We're coming together, whether it was, I need to have a business that is supporting my family, or I really care about protecting the rivers and the oceans. I, that was the work I was doing at Catalyst. One of the things that we do really well is bring philanthropy, um, staff and philanthropists together around shared interests. To help them find a way that their collective impact issue can be greater than their individual impact. So that was the job I was hired to do and what I did exclusively for the first few years, and it served us throughout. So today we do a lot of work that's about working with community based organizations and with philanthropy and with government agencies to find our shared purpose. No, thank you. Thank you for sharing. What a journey. Um, Yeah, super fun. I'd love to hear a little bit like going back a little bit about, you know, for you personally, like, what was it that drew you to do social good and helping people? You know, what was it? Or was it a series of things? Yeah, I think about, um, One moment in particular, you know, uh, whether you call it sort of fate or kismet or, um, or purpose, uh, you know, I was in Washington, D. C. I was in my senior year of college there, and I really figured at that point that I was going to come back home. I had really enjoyed, uh, Being at school, they're very different environment. I highly recommend any of my friends whose kids are thinking about college. I say if they have the interest, let them go somewhere else. Encourage them because it just enriches your ability to to interact compassionately. With folks if you're exposed to some different things, but I figured I'd done my time. I was going to come back home and there was a career fair. It was a government and nonprofit career fair. And I did not go in there with any intent of finding a job, but I just thought, well, that's so cool. That's interesting. At the time I was interviewing for, um, like high heel, uh, shoulder pad, jet setting consultant work, right? International business degree. I thought I was going to go solve the world's problems. I will say that after one interview, I knew that was definitely not the direction I wanted to go. Yeah. Not the way like I wanted to operate. Um, but I'm grateful for all the people who do, uh, so I went in there and it was like the CIA, because we're in DC, right? So it's the CIA. It was Oxfam. It was all these different things. And then it was the National Geographic Society. And if I'm being honest, I thought that just sounded real funny. Cool. So yeah, I dropped my resume in the little box that they had there because that's what you did. Uh, and lo and behold, I got a call and then an interview and then an offer and it actually happened pretty quickly. And I thought, well, I mean, you know, it's like Ghostbusters when they ask you, uh, if you want to work at the National Geographic Society, you say yes. Right. So, so I said yes, and it was a phenomenal experience. What I learned there, because, uh, you know, I say National Geographic and people think of the yellow box, uh, magazine, but it is, uh, a billion dollar, uh, media corporation with a mission. So what I learned was how does a nonprofit organization function as a business? Um, my work was sort of in the executive administrative offices. Um, and that was, that. experience combined with the people that I worked with who, um, have really given me, I think, uh, a deep connection and desire to support and nurture, uh, folks who are trying to find their way in the world. I worked with some very, um, supportive and encouraging mentors and colleagues who taught me how to take care of myself. Yeah. In the world, right? How to understand that I have to look out for myself while also serving others. Um, they taught me that I can be ambitious, uh, And really opened up a lot of pathways for me, people I still am in touch with. Um, so that was sort of the start and how I knew, um, my role was not going to be as an educator or a scientist or an attorney, but I could make an organization work really well so that those people could do amazing work. And that really has been, um, sort of how I've entered into the social good space since then. Oh, wow. That's awesome. That's a great story. I love it. I think you need to write a book. Um, so great. Thank you. So let's now bring it to where you're at now. I was asking you, let's tell us San Diego, uh, are they ground tours? And you said, no, um, not exactly. So give us a little bit of like, you know, when I read your bio and, uh, you know, layman's terms of what kind of, what is it? What does that organization do? Yeah, sometimes people get checks that have our name on them, uh, but it's almost never our money. We are, you could think of us like a chamber of commerce, but for philanthropy. We're a network, we're a community of about a hundred different funders who each have their own purpose and mission and governance structure. We're Uh, some of them are corporate funders, some of them are very small, but mighty giving circles, some of them are private foundations, uh, some of them are government agencies, and their interests run the gamut of, uh, early childhood development to, uh, food security, to very significantly for our conversation, immigration and the safety of people as they're crossing the border and living out their lives here. So I think of us as an issue agnostic organization. We are a nonprofit that is grounded in a set of values. Our mission is to help funders learn, lead, and invest, right? So access educational opportunities, come together around shared purpose, and then deploy their funds in a strategic way. Um, But our vision is about a social change ecosystem, uh, and that is where that grounding and values becomes really important. We believe in community leadership, and we believe that, uh, there is a responsibility that philanthropy has. Because if you think about it, um, the very existence of philanthropy is pointing out wealth inequity. And so if one is among that privileged group of people who either has, um, accumulated or inherited or however, come into possession of wealth that you're now deploying for the communities around you, or you have been hired into a position that gives you an influence over We're all accountable back to those communities, because that came from, you know, hundreds of years ago, through slavery and genocide. Most recently, through the way that our economic system is set up and who labors and who benefits. Is a big part of the work that we do is opening spaces for our members to explore that dichotomy and understand how they can be really, um, responsive and in no case are we Transcribed inviting somebody to feel blame or shame over their position in, in this, um, ecosystem. But we are inviting folks into a conversation about how do we make sure that the folks in the communities that are experiencing the impacts of this system, the resources that they need to put the solutions into play that they already know how to do. We don't need to tell communities how to heal themselves. They know what they need. Um, but there are lots of ways that it's hard for folks to get their hands on the money that is sitting in public coffers in the private. Yes, that is the, that is the struggle. Um, Yeah, I feel your organization. It's that's amazing to have that. And I, and this is new to me and I don't even know if there's an L. A. Version of it, but there needs to be, um, but that is where, you know, these nonprofits, they really do need that help. And to kind of go to one place to then have you, you know, help them with different funders and resources is, is, is, is That is, is, is so great. Um, let's go into some of the border work that you've, uh, helped, um, what, what kind of organizations have you supported and, and, and why. Yeah. So I want to sort of riff on what you just said about, like, Where, where, where is the Catalyst in other places? We're very fortunate to be part of a large network. Um, great. So we're place based. We, our region that we primarily think about is the Southern border region of California, um, San Diego County, Imperial County, and, you know, parts of Northern Baja, California, right? There's people, culture, environment, it's all moving all the time. So this, this is our family. This is our home. This is our place. Um, we do have a network of 30 to 40 other place based organizations across the country. So in Los Angeles, SoCal Grantmakers is a regional association, and there's a Northern California Grantmakers and, uh, an Orange County Grantmakers, and then there are organizations in, uh, Texas, the Pacific Northwest, Missouri, like they're all across the country, um, and each of us reflects our place, right? That's the beauty of a place based organization is that we reflect. the people and the place around us. And so for us, the border identity is extremely important. We also work with a national network of organizations, 60 ish, uh, that are issue or population focused. So I mean, it's funders for LGBTQ issues. Maybe it's A grant maker is concerned with immigrants and refugees or Hispanics and philanthropy. So we're working with all of those folks who have their own networks, many of which overlap to get this work done. And in addition, we work as Philanthropy California. So an alliance between Northern California grant makers, SoCal grant makers, and Catalyst. We work, um, with the sort of interests and power of 600 philanthropic members. Uh, primarily in our conversations with Sacramento. So we have a really great partner in the governor's office. Who's the um, senior director for social innovation, um, or senior advisor for social innovation. So that's really fantastic for us. And then to sort of get to your question, our philosophy has been that, uh, while our responsibility and, um, sort of lever the folks that we're supporting. In their learning and action our funders. One of the things that we can do to best serve them is be in relationship with the nonprofit organizations and the community based organizations who aren't 501 c threes. So that when we're having these conversations about what like what can philanthropy do. And if you think about immigration and the. Like multiple jurisdictional overlaps and the fact that at its core like a huge federal policy issue. It gets really interesting to think about what's the role of philanthropy to drop in the bucket compared to the need to support people in a humane and dignified way. So we work with, uh, like I hesitate to even name anybody because there are probably two dozen really impactful organizations that we work with, you know, so on the funder side, the international community foundation, um, it's a tremendous partner because while they're based here, they focus their funding in Mexico and Latin America. So that helps us be. able to impact and work with 30 plus immigrant shelters in Tijuana. When you think about people who are coming across the border, uh, sure, there are some Mexican nationals, but primarily not. Years ago, and for the folks listening, this is something they probably all know, but years ago, there were a lot of folks from Latin and Central America. Now it's Asia. It is Africa. It is the Caribbean. Uh, they happen to come through Tijuana, um, or Mexicali or somewhere in Arizona and beyond, but, um, they're coming from all over the world. And so it's important for us to have those connections. And then, yes. Our systems here to receive and support people are what I would say is woefully inadequate need is a permanent and sustainable infrastructure, right? And so right now we're working with a number of very grassroots organizations who are literally the first point of contact for people as they step foot into the United States, particularly if they're coming between ports of entry and are being, um, held or left in open air detention sites, which we would We abolished. We would like to see responsibility taken by the government agencies whose job is to care for these people. But we do work with those groups and the support for those operations has been, um, Almost, if not entirely through philanthropy, um, one of the ways that a more permanent and sustainable infrastructure would support our region is by thinking in terms of the entire journey, right? So it's not just their experience in the United States does not start. When they first come in contact with somebody who can take down their information and put them in a system, it actually, you know, it actually starts in their home, um, came from, certainly it starts, uh, just on the other side of the border, but. I would hope that anybody in this conversation could at least concede that it begins the moment they set foot in the country. Uh, and that's before they get on a bus and go and talk to a government agent. So we're working with those folks, with the folks who are trying to Help asylum seekers get to their final destination and we're supporting people who are arriving and end up staying in our community for a longer period of time as their case gets worked through the system and they're able to stabilize and start to work. Well, yeah, I mean, it, it's so great that your organization can help here. I, you know, I personally with group of volunteers, um, have been to these migrant shelters in Tijuana, has been to Hakuba open air detention facilities, and then has been to, uh, the. These, these drop off places that are like these bus stops, um, that, and, and just like being dropped off by CBP, just this whole path that I'm seeing. And then after, and they need to get to where they need to go. And then of course, go through the asylum process, which can take, it's very difficult, um, especially without an attorney and just takes, can take many, many years in that journey. Uh, And it's so helpful that you're, you're able to connect with these organizations because some of them are different at different parts, but there are also, there's also some that do all of it as well, but it's never enough resources or people or, or, or money. And, and to kind of use these, not just, just to take advantage of these, these nonprofits. Like the government is just like, okay, you guys take care of it. There you go. We're just dropping them off. You know, no big deal. It's, It's really appalling, um, and the conditions that, that I've seen personally with my eyes, um, do, and how do these organizations kind of find you? Like, do you just kind of do, or do you already just, you have people kind of looking and, and assessing these orgs and kind of do go out there on the ground to like, how, how does, how does that work? Yeah, it's really a network of relationships. Uh, and you know, we, we hold space is primarily what we do. We build relationships and hold space for others to connect and organize themselves and. I want to sort of recognize and talk a little bit about the funders, right? Like that is, in fact, it is to work with, uh, the philanthropists, um, and foundations and other folks. Um, we have a group called the Binational Migration Funders. Came together around 2018 2019, so, um, the experience here at that time was, um, being, uh, really in the day to day experience of the family separations that became such a media story and the arrival of many, many people suddenly. It was talked about as caravans in, uh, and that was really, um, A pivotal moment when a lot of our funders were paying attention, as were a number of others, and we were able to partner with Hispanics in philanthropy to get folks to be able to come here and see what the experience was, as well as grantmakers concerned with immigrants and refugees and others. But what came from that was a group of About a dozen funders who meets regularly to talk about, um, what they can do individually and what they can do collectively. Uh, and this group includes very local sort of hyper regional focused, um, foundations, as well as those who are thinking about impacts across the state of California and nationally. Um, so there's a really wide array of points of view on this. Um, challenge and that it impacts and their focus is to really think I think of it as sort of vertically and horizontally in my mind. I'm a visual thinker. So sort of understanding that this is about both an urgent humanitarian response because people are hungry. They're tired. They're ill. They're dehydrated and it's about a long term permanent solution. And. Um, I have found this to be true across many, many topics is that the need is almost always to think about both of those timelines. And the challenge is that so often our time and effort as well as our money is, um, logically pointed towards the immediate urgent crisis. Sure. Yeah. and at the, at the, at the expense of being able to spend the thoughtful time, uh, planning for the future. Mm-Hmm., yes. So the group of funders is thinking on those lines as are the nonprofits, of course. And then, uh, vertically we, we think about this as a, uh, a multinational issue, right? Although we're place based, we're recognizing that we are not in isolation. Things that happen in Mexico are impacting us. Things that happen in Sacramento and New York, like, this is all connected. Absolutely. And we think about both funding and advocacy, um, and to be, um, really straightforward, this is not, you know, a San Diego and Imperial County issue. This is a national issue. So absolutely, we shouldn't be left to solve this on our own, right? Because this is about our federal immigration system. This is about a population of thousands upon thousands of people who are Going across the country to become parts of communities everywhere and sort of build up this beautiful, uh, identity that we have as a country, not to mention the vibrant economy that we have. So a lot of that advocacy at work effort is about storytelling, um, so that people recognize and understand. What's starting in terms of our country, what's, what's happening here and the impact it has elsewhere and how they might, uh, be able to help make that a better story for all of us. Yes. Yes. I mean, you mentioned storytelling. It's definitely the way to get at people's hearts, right? When, when people watch the news, like, Oh, it's happening in Texas, it's happening, standing. It's not my problem. This is like, you're like, you said, this is a federal issue. It's a federal issue. Federal policy and people come, they're coming through the border, but then they're ending, you know, they're going to their families and flying all over the place. Like I need to go to Atlanta. I need to go to New York and, um, and it really, it's, it's, it's a, it's about people, right? It's about human beings in, but the storytelling I feel, um, it's really how you, you can, you can, you can get them. Yeah. It's how we, you know, we're very few. With some exceptions. My husband is an engineer, and so, uh, like, he will pick up books that I think of as, like, not unless you're, you know, uh, giving me a degree to read that, but very few people are casually picking up a book about statistics. They are going to pick up the book, um, that has the beautiful photographs. Uh, and so that's how we invite people in, uh, but then there are some hard truths to tell. And some of those hard truths are that the, the funders in this region and in California have contributed millions of dollars, uh, to support folks and the nonprofits that are arriving in absence of, uh, funding. You know, not, not to discount, there has certainly been investment from the state of California, um, through some federal programs, uh, even from the counties. But the level of funding from the federal government and other public agencies has not met the need. And so it's been local philanthropy in California. San Diego and the Imperial Valley that has tried to fill that gap and and and that's that's not good for anyone. That's no way the answer. No, it's not the answer. And it's not doable. It's not sustainable. Like you said, you know, and I'm glad you you are all looking at long term solutions. So we need both happening at the same time. Um, and I don't think people realize how big San Diego County is. Yeah. Yeah. It's actually really big, right? Very big. Yes. Um, we're, we're an interesting region in that we're sort of bounded, uh, by an ocean to our west, another country to our south, a military base to our north and a desert, um, and the state of Arizona to our east. But, uh, if you take San Diego and Imperial counties together, it's about a Um, thousand square miles and the population and that like from there, I'm going to stop combining them because they're very different regions. So San Diego, they're each geographically about the same, about 4, 000 square miles. San Diego County has, um, 3. 1, 3. 3 million people in it. Um, and it takes more than an hour to drive from end to the other and the populations are very diverse. Yeah, we were talking about nationalities earlier, but we could also think about, um, there's a very large military population here. There's very large technology and innovation sector here. There's a very large, um, Native American, uh, concentration of Native American tribes, uh, and farms. There's so many farms. Uh, I think the most small farms. Um, are in this county of anywhere in the country, which, you know, bizarre to think about. If you go to Imperial County, it's the same geographic size and the population is less than 200, 000 people. Yeah. But the movement of people across the border is every single day. Every day. lack of infrastructure that exists there is really impeding the region's ability, infrastructure and investment is impeding the region's ability to fully realize, um, like the life that people would like to have and their ability to contribute, which fun fact, um, slash argument for more investment is that two thirds of the winter vegetables for the entire nation comes out of Imperial County. Wow. Right? Right? And that's not even to speak of the green energy, but just, like, this is not a, a, a, a, a non contributing or insignificant place. This is somewhere that we need to be concerned and caring for. Um, so then that's a heavily Latinx population, agricultural worker population. Yeah. Wow. Well now when I eat my winter vegetables, that's right, I think people from Imperial County. Yep. That's awesome. Um, so what, where do you see Catalyst San Diego going the next few years, like in terms of what is your vision for the next few years? Yeah, it's an interesting time to ask that question, uh, because we are coming up on our 50th anniversary. Wow. Yeah. So in one form or another, we've been around since 1976. Wow. And, and we have certainly evolved, uh, with the community and with society and with the country over that period of time. Uh, from what was, uh, I affectionately think about it as a lunch bunch, you know, in the early days when a handful of folks who knew each other said, you know, we should really get together and talk about this, um, fascinating and, uh, wonderful, uh, Opportunity that we have with philanthropy to today where we, uh, have full time staff. We're hosting frequent educational and networking opportunities more and more. We are seeking to offer a bridge to. Direct relationships between funders and communities. Um, I think with the incredible diversity of people and experiences in our region, um, it's sometimes leads to a level of discomfort with engagement, uh, because people. With power and wealth who want to really get to know communities where before they might have just, you know, made a donation and to someone that they recognized and thought, great, I've done my good work. Now I can move on with my life. Now they want to understand they want to get closer. Um, and really. be able to contribute into the communities that are feeling the impacts and um, are, are putting solutions together with or without funding. They say, you know what, like, let me help you, but they don't have connections there because we all are in our, um, our own worlds. So Catalyst's role in many cases has become creating these spaces where we have relationships In the communities and in the, in the funders circles and can invite them together and say, you know what, like, let's just have lunch or let's, let's go to this, um, community event that's happening or like we can be that, um, shared bond that makes everybody feel like they have a warm introduction. And from that build out a much more. Um, fine meshed network so that, uh, not only the organizations who have been well established, have a strong infrastructure and lots of staff and are able to produce, uh, you know, financial reports and things in the ways that funders have, um, for many, many years been used to seeing them. But we start to get to a point where nonprofits and community organizations have a pathway even to these networks of funders, which often are. Um, not intentionally, but societally, culturally closed off because they're happening in places that might not feel comfortable for, uh, an immigrant community activist to go or in a language that's not accessible to somebody who is, um, running an organization that is primarily monolingual. Oh, mm hmm. I, the short answer to your question is the unsatisfying one of, I'm not really sure. Yeah. Yeah. But what I do. That's okay. Is that we will continue to work in the field of philanthropy, impact investing, public funds, just building out. options for money to move resources to move in ways that create more equitable opportunities because we know that how things are now is not working. Um, when, you know, certainly not for everybody and in reality, not for most folks. And that if we don't, do something different, we can't expect the outcomes to be different. That's, that's the classic definition of insanity, right? If we, so if we don't break some things down and rebuild them differently, um, in the ways that we want to see our world, then that's not going to happen. And I think we are well poised to help make that, um, as possible financially. Yeah, yeah, no, I love, I love it. I feel like there is a huge disconnect between grantmakers, uh, funders and the actual community. I think it's hard, it's difficult for certain community groups to Um, advocate for themselves and do certain application processes or, uh, or meet these funders because a lot of it is relationships and connections and, but how, you know, there's still, there's organizations that do great, but funders don't even know about them because they're just maybe not as savvy in terms of their application, you know, you know, application process. Um, And I think some, a group like yours, if it's focused on that, um, that's, that would be incredibly, incredibly helpful and you are doing that and, and, and it just looks like you're just going to continue to build that. Um, and that's really important. So I, you know, I want Megan, thank you so much for your time, because you know, we don't talk a lot to the funding side of the immigration work, but it's important to hear because people are doing the work. And there are a lot of volunteers, but not everybody works for free nonprofits. Yeah, are being paid and people should be paid. Um, uh, and, and we, we do need the funding. So we, we want, I just want to thank you for, for just doing this work. Um, especially this side of it and, and, uh, hopefully we can have you on in the future. I would love that. I am an eternal optimist and because I think you can't wake up and do this work every day if you don't believe most days that things will get better. Yeah. I see all of the funders who, who want to be in the work with the nonprofits and community members and that movement just gets stronger. And so I'm really honored to be a part of that and appreciate you for having me on and letting me tell this story. Um, because the more we talk about it, uh, the more folks we can bring into the movement and the quicker we'll get to a humane and dignified immigration experience. Yeah, definitely. I can, I can hear your optimism and, uh, I I'm a little less, less optimistic, but I love it and we have to stay positive because. It's going to get better. We're just gonna have to say it's going to get better. We're doing the work. It's going to get better at some point. Um, thank you. Thank you, Megan. You're so awesome. Thank you. This podcast is intended for general education and informational purposes only, and should not be regarded as either legal advice or advice. or a legal opinion. 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