30. How a Daughter of an Immigrant Family became a Lawyer at the Largest Video Streaming Service in the World - A Conversation with Keya Koul, Business & Legal Affairs Counsel at Netflix

On the 30th episode of Immigration Today! Angeline Chen interviews Keya Koul. Keya Koul is Business & Legal Affairs Counsel at Netflix. She serves as one of the co-leads of the Pro Bono Committee in the LA office and has been with Netflix for nearly four years. Keya currently holds an American Bar Association (ABA) Presidential Appointment to the Commission on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (SOGI). Prior to working at Netflix, Keya served as the Director of Career Services at University of San Francisco School of Law. Before that, Keya practiced law in New Mexico for nearly a decade, during which time she was named a Super Lawyers Rising Star. She received her J.D. from Southwestern Law School and obtained her masters from UCLA. She is the eldest daughter of immigrants from Srinagar, Kashmir, India. She speaks English, Spanish, Hindi, Kashmiri, and a little bit of French and Arabic. Keya is passionate about diversity, inclusion, and equity, and believes strongly in giving back through public service and pro bono work.

On this podcast, she talks to us about what her journey growing up as the daughter of Indian immigrant parents was like, her journey in her career and her transition into an in-house attorney at Netflix and what living in LA has been like for her. Keya also talks to us about her battle with cancer in 2014 and how that changed the trajectory of her life. In many ways, her decision to join Netflix as an in-house attorney is tied to her desire to live life in the moment. With her background in entertainment law, her love for social justice, and learning new languages, she found the perfect career for her.

You can follow Keya Koul on LinkedIn. Immigration Today! is always releasing new content. Please subscribe to our immigration newsletter to stay up to date with any new episodes.

DISCLAIMER – This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice or a solicitation to provide legal services. The information in this podcast is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute, a lawyer-client relationship. Listeners should not act upon this information without seeking professional legal counsel. The views and opinions expressed in the podcast represent those of the individual speaker only and are not necessarily the views of Clark Hill PLC.

Transcript

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Hello, everyone. It's Angeline Chen. Welcome to Immigration Today, where I interview leaders, advocates, experts, and volunteers in immigration and immigrant rights on the issues, their experiences, and how you can make a difference. Today we have Kaya Cole. She is the Business and Legal Affairs Counsel at Netflix. She serves as one of the co leads of the pro bono committee in the LA office and has been with Netflix for nearly four years. Kaya currently holds an American Bar Association presidential appointment to the Commission on Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity, SOGI. Prior to working at Netflix, Kaya served as a Director of Career Services at the University of San Francisco School of Law. Before that, Kaya practiced law in New Mexico for nearly a decade, during which time she was named a Super Lawyer's Rising Star. She received her JD from Southwestern Law School and obtained her master's from UCLA. She's the eldest daughter of immigrants from Srinagar, Kashmir, India. She speaks English, Spanish, Hindi, Kashmiri, and a little bit of French and Arabic. Kea is passionate about diversity, inclusion, and equity and believes strongly in giving back through public service and pro bono work. Kea, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. I know you are incredibly busy. I really appreciate your time today. Can we get into a little bit of your background? I can just start asking some questions. Is that good? Absolutely. Awesome. Thank you so much. If you can please tell us a little bit of your immigrant story and how you came to the U. S. and I'd love to hear about that. Absolutely. So I'm a first generation immigrant from India. So my parents came over, they were married and they came over and, uh, I was born in Philadelphia. But my dad's job shifted very shortly thereafter. So we actually moved back to India. And so I lived in India from the time that I was about three until I was about seven. And then we moved back to the States. And, um, I have to say that, uh, You know, our entire extended family is still in India. So growing up, we would go back during the summers every year. And even now, uh, I try to go back. I would love to go back every year, but I go, I try to go back every other year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's, it, it must have been a hard time during COVID, right? And then you want to now get back there. And can you tell us a little bit of where you're from there? Yes. So my family, both of my parents, uh, their families and they grew up in Srinagar, Kashmir. Okay. Sorry, I mispronounced that earlier. Oh, no, no worries. It's, uh, Kashmir is a valley in the Himalayan mountains, so all the way up north, uh, it's also a disputed, uh, part of Kashmir is a disputed territory between India and Pakistan. And uh, because of that in the early nineties, um, most of my family moved to New Delhi. So, Kashmir is, uh, or was at the time, uh, about 98 percent Muslim, 2 percent Hindu, and, uh, my family is Hindu, and, uh, there was a lot of, uh, unrest in the early 90s. Um, I mean, there's still a lot of, uh, political strife there. Uh, but because of that, most of my family moved to New Delhi. So now when I go back to India, I go to New Delhi to visit my family. Okay. And, and what was the reason for your family coming here and kind of staying here eventually? Yeah. So my dad had come to, uh, to the States for graduate school. He was part of that. sort of 70s, 60s, 70s. Um, I guess it was 60s sort of, uh, influx of, um, sort of sciencey types of folks that came to the States for graduate school. And then, um, I think when he, um, you know, at some point he decided that he wanted to get married and have a family. And so he went back to India and Basically told his mother that he was ready to get married. And then the whole process of the arranged marriage started. Oh, so sweet. Um, and then how was your transition? You know, you said you came back when you were seven, right? How was your transition back here and what was it like for you in your youth? Yeah, I think it's always been, um, sort of this. straddling of two lives, two identities, two cultures. For me, I think, um, folks that, uh, immigrate, especially, I think maybe at an earlier age, but I think. It's a, I I've read a lot of literature around the immigrant experience and there's this idea of sort of, um, the borderlands, right? Like living in sort of the, not really belonging in one place or the other. Mm-Hmm. But straddling the line between both. Yep. I've always felt that way. I mean, I grew up in a very, in a very traditional Indian household. We, we lived in a multi generational household. My grandmother lived with us for most of my life. Uh, we, uh, spoke the languages at home. We ate the food. We kept the cultures and the sort of religious ceremonies. We were spending a lot of time back home, relatives would come visit us. So it was, um, it was, that was sort of one world. And then the minute I left the house and went to a very American school in New Jersey, it was a completely different, um, sort of set of experiences. I can imagine. What was the, uh, uh, population of Indian Americans where you were living? Like, how was the demographic? At the time, we were one of two Indian families. Oh, really? Yeah. It was us and the Kapoors. And, um, uh, now the area has changed quite a bit. Um, I actually went back about Five, six years ago to speak to the high school. And I was pleasantly surprised to see how diverse the community has become. Um, but at the time it was, it was us in the Kapoors. Yeah. Did you feel welcomed by, by those students or were, was it a constant struggle for you? I think it, um, I think it was an internal struggle. I think there was a little bit of an external struggle as well. Like I think. My mom and I mean, all of us had to do a lot of educating. Um, I think, you know, my sibling had some pretty awful experiences with some of the teachers in the school where they would make comments that were just super ignorant about our culture. And, um, you know, I, I was sort of like a hippie. And so I would wear our Indian outfits to school. And like, I was, you know, sort of. pushing the boundaries a little bit in terms of, uh, sort of meshing the two identities. But, um, yeah, I mean, it was difficult. It was obvious that I was different than everyone else. Yeah. And, um, you know, even in terms of like what was valued and what was important and what we were being told at home, um, let alone like what lunches I was bringing to school and what we were eating. Yeah. Yeah, no, the lunch is a big one because I remember growing up and I had, um, uh, my grandma, my great grandma living with us and we would just get Chinese food and I bring dumplings with chopsticks and I remember just feeling a little like uncomfortable and, you know, I grew up. In, in a city called Cerritos in LA County, and it's actually really diverse, but there was still something there as if I was not, uh, American enough and I rebel to, and just like, didn't really want to speak Mandarin so much. I went through that, you know, ridiculous phase. I completely regret, but even being, you know, raised in a pretty diverse with a lot of Asian Americans, actually, a lot of Indian Americans. It's, it's difficult to find that identity and who you are and like you're a mixture, right? You're a mixture of different cultures. And so when did you kind of figure out your identity and feel comfortable? Was it later in college or later or what? When do you think you felt comfortable with yourself? Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I think it's an ongoing process and journey. I feel like I'm still trying to figure out how. To be comfortable in all different parts of my identity. Um, but I think with my, uh, sort of immigrant identity and being Indian, being South Asian, um, I think in high school, again, I think because of the folks that I was hanging out with, they were hippies and they were sort of, there is that sort of connection to sort of Indian culture with, and like clothes and things like that. And so. There was an appreciation, and I think my group of friends Um, did appreciate that, but I think it was probably in college where I met other folks like me, not necessarily South Asian Americans, but Asian Americans in general, like my best friend from college is Korean American. And we were like besties from day one in college. And so just like talking to her and hearing how similar our lived experiences had been was. Very validating. And I think empowering also in a lot of ways. Yeah. Yeah. It's like finding that one friend, right? Going through it together. College was not UCLA. That was your master's, right? Where was college? I went to Smith college in Massachusetts for my, okay. Okay. Yeah. And that's a very progressive school. So yeah. And what, and what decided you to move to LA? Was it going to UCLA? Yes, so after college, I lived in Boston with my college best friends for a year. Then I got into a master's program for actually medieval Spanish literature. Wow. Yeah, which is actually tied to sort of this whole topic because, you know, having come from a place in the world that is, you majority Muslim, minority Hindu, and living with that dynamic. I was very curious and interested about the coexistence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians in medieval Spain, and so that's why I had applied for that specific master's program. Um, and ended up at UCLA, which I was very happy to be there. That's amazing. Cause I was going to ask you about those languages, um, you know, learning Spanish and then at some point learning French and Arabic, where was that? Yeah. So that was French. I learned in high school and then I have continued on as, as an adult through college and. I've also, you know, taken classes at the Lycée Francais and things like that, uh, as an adult. Uh, Arabic was during my master's program. I had a tutor, um, because a lot of the texts and manuscripts and things like that had references to Arabic language that, so I wanted to learn that and also it's just a beautiful language and I've continued to learn, continue to study Arabic as an adult as well. In fact, when I lived in San Francisco, there's a wonderful language institute in downtown San Francisco where I was taking classes and it's a very difficult language to learn. Um, the grammar is impossible. And so, It's a, it's, I think it's going to be a lifelong, um, I've always wanted to go American university in Cairo has a one year immersion program where you go live there and you basically just speak Arabic for a year and everyone comes out of there fluent. I would love to do that program at some point. Yes. Yes. And you know, if you ever want to change professions, uh, we could take you as a partner in our immigration department, you'd be very useful with all the languages. And I just started, I love learning languages and I love traveling and. I love people, which is, I, I think one of the main reasons why I love like learning languages to just be able to communicate, but I just last week started, uh, it's how beginners Italian classes. No. Wow. Another one. So I'm going to add that. Two beginner Italian. Oh, wow. That's so hot. How do you pick these? Like next should be, should be Mandarin. We could get, that's what I, I speak some. I mean, I, you know, I always said that because my best friend is Korean American, I should learn some Korean. So at least we have a sort of a language that we can speak, uh, to each other when we're, we're trying to gossip about folks that are, yes. Yes. The gossiping is the best. Yeah. I have my child and I, and Jeff and I, uh, my husband and I both speak Spanish and I'm, I just like try to do, but he, but now Bodhi kind of understands because we have a nanny. It's like now there is no language. My parents speak to him in Mandarin and then there's no language between me and my parents either. So yeah, you have to have, you have to have some like secret language. That's amazing though because kids are sponges for languages. Yes. I used to teach K through three Spanish in the Boston public school system. And after the first week they were. The kids would be talking to one another. It was amazing. Yeah, it happens really fast. They're the, they learn faster than anything. And that's why you also have to be careful what you're listening to in the background, you know, or our music in the words. And, you know, and so, yeah, very aware of that. Um, so where did your, so let's get into, why did you want to be an attorney? Yeah, so that's an interesting journey. So law is a third career for me. So after, you know, during my master's program at UCLA, I taught Spanish to undergrads, that's how we sort of got a little bit of a stipend to pay for things. And then after, um, the master's program, I had decided that I wasn't really willing to. move anywhere, you know, for, if you go on for your PhD and you want to be an academic, you really have to move to wherever the jobs are. And I wasn't willing to do that. And so I finished my master's and then I worked at, um, a news agency, a company that distributes press releases for companies and organizations called PR Newswire. And I started as an editor and, and then sort of made my way up. To manage the newsroom and a team of editors, and it was a wonderful experience, but there was definitely sort of, uh, a limit to the career growth and progression there for me. I felt like I bumped up against sort of a glass ceiling, uh, at a certain point. And. I had always been super, um, social justice minded, very active in advocacy, uh, volunteering, public service. Um, it was always something that had been important to me as a component of my life. And, um, and so law school seemed like a great. avenue to explore what those options are and also a great education and career to support myself and to, you know, pay the bills and to, to be independent. Um, and so that's when I decided to go back to law school. That's amazing. I'm glad you did. And, and then was your first job after that at the San Francisco School of Law? No, actually. So right after law school, I moved to New Mexico. New Mexico. That's right. Yeah. So I, um, actually, in fact, it was because of PR Newswire, they consolidated their operations and, Created a hub in Albuquerque. So I sort of moved there with them and sort of put my law career on hold for a bit, uh, to help them with some trainings and hiring and recruiting and that kind of stuff. And then I, um, I decided to stay in New Mexico. It was a very small legal community, but very welcoming. And so my first legal gig, once I, you know, I took the bar there, passed the bar, got licensed. And then my first, um, job was with a solo bankruptcy practitioner. And he was wonderful. He did mainly bankruptcy, a little bit of personal injury, but he really let me loose on the cases, which for me. You know, I was a later in life lawyer, right? So, uh, I didn't need so much hand holding. I wanted to learn by doing. I wanted to jump in there and, and get really hands on practical experience. And, and he let me do that. Oh, that's great. And then what made you decide to, to move into, uh, to go to South, um, excuse me, to San Francisco School of Law. Yeah, so after practicing, uh, in litigation for nearly a decade, and, um, quite frankly, uh, it was a combination of two things. One, uh, I'm much more a collaborative person than an adversarial person, and I think I had Reach sort of the threshold with discovery disputes and all of that kind of stuff that, um, I wanted, I wanted something more collaborative. Um, and then also I had a major life health, uh, crisis come up, uh, in 2014, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer. Oh my goodness. So yeah, that, yeah. And that was a huge wake up call for me because I had been living in New Mexico. None of my family was around. Um, and I sort of was like, what am I doing? And so my best friend from Smith, Lavina, um, came to New Mexico. We packed up my car. We did the cross country road trip that we had always wanted to do. Um, took some time off. And in the meantime, I had been very active with the local law school in New Mexico. Um, everyone there was like, you should go work at a law school. And I started putting out some feelers and my sibling is in San Francisco. So that's how I ended up at University of San Francisco School of Law. Okay. Okay. And then how did, did you heal? Okay. Everything went fine. Yeah. I mean, it was a, it was a, uh, it was one of those moments that, uh, has changed the trajectory of my life forever in a good way. Um, it was that wake up call that I needed. I had surgery, I had to have a thyroidectomy and, um, uh, you know, all of the surgery and then they do a radioactive iodine treatment afterwards. So I went through all of that and, um, you know, knock on wood, I've been, you know, cancer free since then. So that's amazing. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Total wake up call. Right. Total wake up call. Yeah, it's just, um, it's a little bit of what we were talking about before the, before we started recording about living in the moment and really like living in the present moment and, and enjoying and savoring every second. And so the decisions that I made following that really. Were because of that, um, you know, working at a law school, working with students that was, you know, I just loved it. It was much more collaborative. It was problem solving. It was helping, you know, University of San Francisco has a very diverse student body. And so it was helping folks that were, you know, first generation, um, dealing with all kinds of different. nuances and issues in their day to day. Um, uh, it was, I, I really enjoyed my time there. Yeah, I mean, being, you know, helpful and with, with the students in their future, it could be so rewarding and then meeting them later. Oh, I helped you get that job. And now your partner, or now you're in this nonprofit or now look at it. I could do that. I would like something interesting that I would like to do. Yeah, because I love. Talking to students and giving the advice and like, oh, this is how you should interview. This is how your resume should look your there's just little things that I've learned from experience, you know, that and because I'm on the other side now doing interviews, I would know how to give how to give tips. Yeah, what a rewarding, rewarding job. Yeah, I loved it. And I love the opportunity. Um, to be that voice that I didn't have. Um, I mean, my high school guidance counselor told me that I shouldn't bother applying to colleges and, um, you know, I, it was, it was, I had had several of those voices along the way. So I really wanted to be the voice that was a realistic, practical. And supportive. Yes. So, um, you know, even now I still talk to, you know, middle school, high school, college, law students, uh, new, you know, newer attorneys to the profession. And I'm always very sort of practical. Uh, I don't mess around with like, you know, I, I've talked to them. I'm like, what are your familial obligations? What are the bottom line? Like how much money do you need to bring in to pay the bills every month? Like, what is your short term plan? What's your long term plan? Do you want to like all of those things that don't really get talked about necessarily. So I really enjoyed it. You're like a coach. It could be also life coach for attorneys. So, so then what made you decide, I may want to, you know, try the dry corporation. What, how was what happened there? Yeah, this is, you know, this is, you know, one of those things and this is also what I tell folks that I chat with is just having your. mind and heart open to opportunities, and you never know what's going to happen. So in law school, my focus had always been entertainment law. I went to Southwestern here in LA that has an entertainment Institute. It's very entertainment focused. I was on the, uh, inaugural board of the entertainment law journal there, the, you know, former. General counsel from CNN was running the Institute at the time. And I had done internships at SAG AFTRA and I had worked at a labor side, uh, law firm that's, that represented the DGA and WGA. I had done in one year externship at 20th century Fox's employment, uh, litigation group. So during, and then, you know, life happened and I moved to New Mexico with my. Was interesting because when I moved to New Mexico was when the entertainment boom started happening in Albuquerque, we're filming breaking bad and all of these like Western shows were being filmed there and no one really knew, like none of the attorneys in the legal community there really knew much about the guilds and all of that. So even though I was at a real estate. firm, my managing attorney, let me have sort of a side hustle where I would bring in, you know, producers and agents and, and different folks that needed, um, advice, um, on different legal matters. Um, so that was like my one connection to entertainment, uh, for a little bit in New Mexico, but it had always been like, that's what I had wanted to do. And I had stayed in LA. Um, and not left the state. That's what I would have pursued. And so when I was at University of San Francisco School of Law, obviously as the head of career services, I would get job postings all the time. Mm hmm. And, um, I saw this job posting where Netflix was posting an opportunity called the Production Legal Lab. And it was a new program that had been created and they were taking attorneys that had been practicing in different areas and they were, they were putting them through a training program to retrain them to be business legal affairs counsel at Netflix. And as I was reading this and reading this, I was thinking this. cannot be true. This is, uh, what an amazing experience. Like I know, like I was, I think, uh, a little further along in my career than what was stated. And so I was like, should I apply? What should I do? And so I made some inquiries to see like, would I, is, am I the type of candidate that they were thinking about? And then I decided to throw my hat in the ring and was very thrilled to be selected. Um, we, the group that I started with was the third, uh, sort of cohort of folks to go through the program. And, uh, it, it honestly, it's a dream come true. So awesome. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's been amazing. Uh, the journey has been amazing and, and oftentimes, you know, and when I joined, it was obviously a completely different. Uh, environment that, you know, I had worked for PR Newswire is a multinational corporation, but nothing at the scale of what Netflix is. Um, I was, uh, we went through this three month intensive, um, training program where it was like classroom style, uh, you know, classes basically every day, five days a week, all day. And then we did, um, basically like an apprenticeship, so rotations through different teams at Netflix. And the beauty part of it all is that the team that I ended up on is a team where not only do I get to use Uh, the law, but I also get to use my languages. Oh. Because I support the global localization team, so all the folks that do all the dubbing and subtitling for our content all around the world. That's my purview, so. Oh, that's awesome.. I mean, it's just, um, you know, and another piece of my job also is I support a team that does. Diversity, equity, and inclusion pipeline programs into the industry all over the world as well. So I pinch myself daily to say, how did this happen? Where these three passions of mine have somehow intersected into this. Honestly, it's a dream job for me. Oh my goodness. That's amazing. Like it is perfectly aligned for you. Perfectly aligned the languages, entertainment and DEI basically. Yeah. Wow. You know what? Why do you think that happened? How do you think that happened? Like, do you, do you think you just went through the steps? I mean, it took a little time, right. To get there and. I feel like people in general don't, are not patient enough and struggle in their young attorney days and look at what happened, you know, look at what happened to you. So how do you think that happens? I think it's, um, being open to opportunity and I think not being too much of a stickler of having to fit into certain. boxes or categories. I think I often tell law students that there's a big pressure in law school. You have to pick civil or criminal, transactional or litigation, which practice area, but life is not linear. Life is a roller coaster ride, right? So, and you have to be able to sort of move with, with that. Um, and so I think because of. My life trajectory and having lived all over the world and moved so many times and I learned to be super adaptable in whatever situation. And so I think just being adaptable, being open to opportunities and then at the end of the day, taking that leap of faith of that, you know, taking that chance on yourself. Um, because. I, you know, my job in career services, I loved that job. I wasn't leaving a job that I hated. I liked that job. I loved working with the students there, but it was a leap of faith in myself, right? Like taking that chance on myself and what My dreams and, and, and my, uh, hopes and goals and all of that. It's amazing. I mean, because you think you were a litigator first, people always think litigators going into in house is not as, you know, it's not a, it's not the transition you would think, cause you're working with mostly transactional documents and then you, you know, working in a law school doing career services. So you wouldn't think naturally that you would be that person for in house, but. I'm so glad about the training too, right? That program that they had was perfect. Yeah, it's a wonderful program. And I think that you're right. I mean, the trajectory when folks see my trajectory, it's sort of all over the place, but in a lot of ways, the litigation has really, my litigation experience has really set me up to be a much better in house. I see all the sort of like, uh, risks and liabilities and like, you know, I can sort of see how this may play out down the road. Um, I have a different lens with which I look at deals and contracts. Um, and even quite frankly, working in academia, there's a skill set that I developed there that has helped me in my role, which is in academia. You are almost like sort of an in house consultant that has to navigate different stakeholders and getting consensus from folks and making sure that any issues are brought to light. And as an in house attorney, you have to do that all the time with your internal business partners. That is so true. That's so true. So for, for some of our other attorneys who are not In house, can you give us a little bit of your day to day? Like, what, what do you work on and what is it like? Yeah. So this is the thing that I love about my job is that every day is different. So I have different parts of my role. So my primary responsibility is supporting the global localization team. So the folks that do the dubbing and subtitling of all of our content all over the world. So that role includes several pieces. So. Um, from a vendor perspective, like from sort of a commercial piece, um, we have to engage dubbing studios all around the world, um, that do our dubbing, right? So I negotiate and I draft those agreements. Um, so that's one piece of it, which is a lot of fun because I get to interact with attorneys all over the world and, uh, you know, learn about all kinds of nuances of, of local laws and regulations. And then I provide day to day advice and counsel to the dubbing team. So any questions that come up, whether it's IP or, you know, music related or anything, any questions that come up as their dubbing content, um, I act as their, uh, you know, their legal counsel for that piece of it. I also do. So as you can imagine, um, with the increase of. Um, sort of English dubbing is a new thing, right? Like dubbing has been happening all over the world for hundreds of years, but English dubbing is relatively new, but with shows like Squid Game and Money Heist and those types of shows that people did watch in English dubs now. Onscreen actors want the opportunity to dub themselves into languages in which they're fluent, right? So, especially in Europe, where you can imagine folks speak two, three, four languages. Now, um, I help with some of that negotiation as well. So, uh, a very famous, uh, example of this is that, um, so Sophia Loren's son did a movie for Netflix. And, uh, she was in it. She was the lead character. It's a wonderful movie called The Life Ahead. Um, and so she dubbed herself in English. It was in the film of an Italian and she did her English dub. So things like that that come up that, uh, is more on the talent side. Um, that's coming up more and more. Um, so that's sort of one piece of it. And then as I mentioned, I also support a global team that does diversity, equity and inclusion pipeline programs. Yes, tell us. And so, um, they create training programs for folks all over the world. For different roles within, you know, it's really all over the board from, um, you know, voice actors to mixers, to VFX artists, to engineers, grips, hair and makeup, like really the whole gamut of roles within the entertainment industry. Um, so they create training programs and then there are often opportunities to. work on productions to, to utilize the skills that you've learned through those trainings. And so I help, um, you know, again with, um, the negotiation and the papering of those deals as well. Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. So what is your favorite show on Netflix? Oh, that's a good question. I think my, the recent one that I just watched that is fantastic and I was very excited, um, to watch it because I like the spy shows is The Recruit. Oh, yes. It's so good. So good. That's my recent one. But honestly, I'm I because of my sort of history with Spain and my love of Spain. I am partial to all the Spanish shows. So I watch all of them like Casa de Papel and Elite and all of them. Casa de Papel. It's like the best show I've ever seen when I saw that. And then I, and then I saw, Oh, they changed the name to money heist, but I remembered it as a Casa de Papel. And I would text people, say, have you seen this show? And when the first season, they're like, no, like you have to watch it. And now, you know, everybody knows about it, but, Oh my goodness. The content, the amount of content out there, right. Compared to when we were growing up, it's just, wow. I can, I don't have enough time. Like, I could literally just, not enough time. Yeah, I could sit all day. Not enough time. And it's so wonderful. You know, even I see my parents like being able to access content from India and from Spain and from all over Korea and like all over the world. Like. Uh, just having that access to content, global content is, um, I think for folks that are, you know, sort of global citizens and globally minded. It's just so wonderful. You must, uh, you must get. Employee of the year, a lot, if they do that Netflix, because the way you talk about your work, they should, they should give you whatever you want. Should be their post report for the company. Yeah, they need to hear this podcast, what you talk about them. So I hope you do get everything that you want from that company. Yeah, no, I love it. I love the, um. You know, like I said, I really do pinch myself every day. It's the opportunity has been amazing. And, you know, I also have, I I'm on a amazing team as well. So that makes a difference as well. Yeah. So I see there's a partnership with the legal aid foundation of LA and Netflix. Yeah. What is that? How are, yeah, working together. Another layer of all of the things that I'm passionate about coming to fruition, which is. Um, I was very, very lucky that in my first year at Netflix, we had a sort of all hands meeting, uh, that was like all day long. And I just happened to sit next to a colleague who was one of the co leads for the, uh, LA Pro Bono Committee at Netflix. And I hadn't even heard about it, even though, you know, I've been very involved with pro bono and public service for many years now. And he invited me, it was, uh, it was actually, um, post George Floyd. And there were, they, the LA pro bono committee wanted to do some work that was focused on racial justice. And I had been working through the ABA. with connecting folks that had been arrested during some of the protests with pro bono criminal defense counsel. And so he found out about that through our conversation and he invited me to come to the next meeting to present on some of the work that I had been doing. Well, that was the beginning of a very long relationship. Um, so I actually ended up, um, attending that meeting and presenting about my little piece of what I had been doing, but then listening to the meeting and listening that they wanted to like, sort of create these, um, you know, we live and work in Los Angeles and there's so much need here. And so we want to give back to the community in which we work and live. And, um, so I volunteered to do some sort of, um, Outreach to local legal services providers to see if there were opportunities to partner and Legal Aid Foundation, um, has, um, a few opportunities that we partner with them. Mainly, they have a quarterly, um, well they have monthly, um, uh, monthly criminal expungement clinic that they do. And so we've now partnered with them. I think this is our third year, um, where, uh, we have certain clinics that are all staffed by Netflix attorneys. Oh, wow. And, um, we've also been helping, they have some, um, DACA renewal, uh, uh, folks, folks that need help with DACA renewal. So we've been doing those as well. Um, and, uh, the relationship has been great. It's, you know, just continuing to grow and, um, I'm now one of the co leads of the pro bono committee here. Of course you are. Of course. Can't do anything just halfway or a little bit, you know, it's a wonderful opportunity and we have so much support from, um, you know, the head of our legal department and All of the, the, the entire legal team and the leadership of the legal team has been super supportive of all of the work that we're, that we're doing. Um, and it's extremely fulfilling to be able to give back in that way. Totally. How many of there are you in the employees in Los Angeles? Oh my gosh. So, legal employees? There are hundreds. Uh huh. Um. In Los Angeles? Yes. Oh wow, I didn't know. What, where in Los Angeles? So in Hollywood, we have um, several buildings in Hollywood. Oh wow. On Central Boulevard. So there's, where I sit, um, I'm on this actual studio lot at Sunset Bronson Studios. Oh, fun. There are thousands of employees in these two buildings. Okay. Yeah, I didn't know. That's great. And then there's one across the street. There's one on Vine. So there's several buildings throughout LA that have Netflix employees. Wow. And so legal team alone is hundreds in Los Angeles. Yeah, the global, yeah. The global legal team is upwards of, I think, 700 people now. Wow. That's amazing. And what a fun area to be in. Do you have to go in? I am actually in the office today. Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's a wonderful, you know, I live by myself, so for me, it's. It's wonderful to come in and be able to chat with my colleagues and bounce ideas off of them. And it's, you know, as you can imagine, it's that tech entertainment environment. So there's lots of snacks and food and music. And like yesterday, there was an event here where a performer who had just performed at Coachella was performing here and like, there's always something going on during the workday. Yeah. Wow. We had a concert during the day. Okay. Two o'clock snack time. Everybody come on in conference a or like ballroom a please ballroom. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because you know, uh, Ramadan just finished and so they had Eid celebration last week and then they brought in this amazing, uh, Arab American singer to sing yesterday for, to celebrate Eid. So. That's amazing. How fun. Whenever you need guests or anything, let me know. Absolutely. You must come and have lunch here one day. Yeah. I had no idea. It's right there. That's awesome. Oh, how fun. So we have our audience. Um, some are younger and, you know, even they just want to be a lawyer and, you know, or be in house counsel because it sounds, it sounds so fun. Oh my gosh. In house counsel at Netflix. Right. So fun. What kind of advice would you give somebody who, who would be interested in that? Yeah, I mean, I, again, I'm very sort of practically minded. So I want to. Lay it all out there so that there's no secrets, right? There's no unexpected, um, you know, law school is a very expensive endeavor. Um, I mean, honestly, even college is a very expensive endeavor. Applying to colleges is a very expensive endeavor. So when I go and talk to middle school students. students or even college students. I sort of like to lay it all out there. So like you have to graduate from high school. There is a testing process, which can be quite expensive. The application process is very expensive. So talking about the finances and the nitty gritty, talking to them about sort of what subjects. interest them, um, and sort of, um, and in terms of law school, I would say, um, being really open, honest, and transparent about, um, the realities of the law, right? The way that the recruiting process works out of law school. Um, you know, I think a lot of law students go into law school wanting to be public interest attorneys. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately can't afford to do that once they graduate from law school. Yeah. Yeah. And so just being very honest about that whole process. Um, and also talking about pro bono and public service as a way to give back in that meaningful way. While you could still have a day job that can pay the bills and do all of that. Exactly. Um, but yeah, I'm very, uh, you know, the, I mean, I could go on and on about higher education and the system and the bar exam and law school. But there's a lot there. So like, I just sort of like, my thing is, is that for me, you know, I'm a single person. And for me, the law has. Um, allowed myself to be financially independent. So for me, it's been a good career. Um, and you know, there have been dips and roller coaster rides along the way, right? Sure. Um, uh, so I, I'm honest about all of that. And I, I, I, you know, I think that if you're passionate about something, um, There are a lot of ways to access that passion and live out that passion. Mm hmm. Um, law school may be one of those ways. Mm hmm. Um, but just really, uh, talking about just all of that. Like for me. Right. So like for, for me, law school, sitting in the classes and reading cases from the 1800s did not do it for me. Yeah. Like. Oh my goodness. I wanted to be out there doing stuff. Yeah. I wanted to be, so for me externships. So I did as many externships as I could because I wanted to be out there actually doing the work. I did not want to be sitting in class like the law school exams were a complete. I didn't understand them. I didn't get it. So, you know, just talking about all of those things and just being real. And especially in California, I mean, the big pink elephant in the room is the bar exam, right? And how difficult it is to pass the bar exam in California. So, you know, talking about the uniform bar exam, talking about going to other States, depending on whether you want to do, like if you're doing immigration law or any of the federal. bankruptcy, anything like that. Like there are easier ways to get a license and start making some money. Yeah, no, that advice is really good since immigration laws, federal, you could be licensed anywhere. Yeah, I feel like it's very difficult to be, you know, a high school student trying to go to college these days. And for me, it's like, we have to take the SATs. Okay. Well, now you don't even have to take the SATs. Yeah, colleges aren't necessarily, you know, using and I'm glad because I, oh, my gosh, my score was so bad. But, but then you have to have something else, right? Make sure you're in the community, of course, get good grades, but, um, do stuff in the community, make yourself stand out, spend time on your letter. I just, it's just such a different time. It's a different time. Then going to law school, I struggled in law school as well as the same way. The Socratic method scared me to death. Yeah, I mean, I think I still have PTSD from it. I did not like them at all. I'm trying to read the cases. Same as you. And honestly, most of the professors were really. Boring. Yeah. I feel kind of bad saying that now, but it's just wasn't interesting. So law school's not for everyone. Everyone. I didn't have any mentors helping me either. I just thought, oh, I want to help people. I think I want to be a lawyer. I mean, I'm glad that I I'm here now. I'm doing what I'm doing, but it's definitely not the only path. Not the only path. Right? No, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for all, you know, your help and mentoring and, and teaching kids and, and, and just being here. With your busy schedule and working in and pro bono, and just thank you so much because in a position like yours, you don't have to do any of that. You don't, you really, you really don't having someone like you in this position is really get inspire a lot of other people who look like us think, well, we can get there too. We can do it too. And we can be happy. We can be happy in a corporation because that's another question. Can we fit in in an environment like that? And you're definitely a testament to that. So thank you so much for everything you do. Oh, absolutely. I, you know, I follow my. Okay. I followed the lead of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who I had the honor of seeing her speak once. And, you know, she said that every time she spoke in public, the one thing she would make sure that she said is that as attorneys, we have a responsibility to give back through pro bono and public service work. Hmm. And. I really believe that. I mean, I believe that even before I was a lawyer that, um, you know, each individual citizen, if you are able to, and if you have, you know, certain privileges, you have a responsibility to volunteer and give back, um, to, to the community in which you live and work. And I, I often hear, um, you know, her say that, that, you know, that. And I tell new lawyers that as well. Like, um, you know, it's, it's almost like that sustainability. Sort of idea where you can't just take, take, take. Yeah. There's a reciprocal relationship where you have to give also and you have to give back and you have to nourish the, um, community in which you're living and working so that we can all be, um, fruitful and, and live full lives and be happy and healthy. Yes, yes, I need to take you everywhere. Honestly, you should be a motivational speaker as well. Get paid just to speak. Thank you so much. I've learned so much from you and this was a great experience for me. Thank you so much. Thank you, likewise. It was a pleasure to be here. This podcast is intended for general education and informational purposes only and should not be regarded as either legal advice or a legal opinion. You should not act upon or use this publication or any of its contents for any specific situation. 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