32. Immigration is a Black Issue! – Patrice Lawrence from UndocuBlack Network

On the 32nd episode of Immigration Today! Angeline Chen interviews Patrice Lawrence from the UndocuBlack Network.  Black immigrants are often prone to higher rates of detention and deportation, have less access to legal representation, and are likely to be forgotten in the narrative of immigration in general. When entire communities are invisible in these narratives, they are also left out of conversations surrounding the protection and advocacy of their human rights. Listen as Patrice shares her immigration journey into the U.S., how she survived without status, and the work that UndocuBlack Network is doing to ensure that black immigration issues become an important part of the larger immigration narrative.

Patrice Lawrence (she/her) is the Executive Director of the UndocuBlack Network (UBN) and a member of the community it serves - currently and formerly undocumented Black immigrants who are transforming their realities and making their demands known on a local, state, and national level. Originally from Jamaica, Patrice is a graduate of Hollins University. In 2023, she was named by the Washingtonian as one of the top 500 influencers in Washington, D.C. Over the past seven years since the co-creation of UndocuBlack Network, Lawrence’s expertise in legislative matters has been instrumental in securing the largest form of legislative relief in over two decades when she worked with members of Congress on both sides of the aisle to secure immigration relief for Liberians in 2019. Patrice is a fierce advocate for the liberation of all peoples and towards that vision has been a leader in building unity across racial and ethnic communities. Patrice has penned op-eds for CNN, Black Star News, and NewsOne.

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Transcript

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Hello, everyone. It's Angeline Chen. Welcome to Immigration Today, where I interview leaders, advocates, experts, and volunteers in immigration and immigrant rights on the issues, their experiences, and how you can make a difference. Today, we have Patrice Lawrence. Patrice Lawrence is the executive director of the UndocuBlack Network. In her time at UBN, she is steadily leading the charge on what currently and formerly undocumented black immigrants need by making their demands clear on a local and national level. Patrice is a fierce advocate for liberation of all peoples, and towards that vision, has been a leader in building unity across racial and ethnic communities. Originally from Jamaica, Patrice is a graduate of Hollins University, and has been named as one of the top 300 influencers in Washington, D. C. The UndocuBlack Network, UBN, is a multi generational network of currently and formerly undocumented black people that fosters community, facilitates access to resources, and contributes to transforming the realities of black people so that they are thriving and living their fullest lives. UndocuBlack Network was founded in 2016, and their vision is to have truly inclusive immigrant rights and racial justice movements that advocate for the rights of black undocumented individuals, provide healing spaces and community to those with intersecting identities. As recent as April 2023, UndocuBlack Network was the winner of the Frederick Douglass Award. Congratulations. Patrice, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. Thank you. I know you're incredibly busy. Uh, is it okay if we start talking about your life and the organization? I'll just start asking some questions. Sure. Go ahead. Awesome. Thank you. So Patrice, what, what, where does your passion for helping immigrants come from? Well, I, I think for myself, uh, perhaps, uh, you know, I think one of the good things about, uh, the work that we do is that We are led by, made up of, folks who are currently or formerly undocumented. Um, who are black and there are, of course, different levels to that because black is not a monolith, but we've really come to realize how many things are messed up. Um, and I think also for me, coming from another country, just seeing the difference that black people are treated when they're not in the majority, as well as. How easy things could be and how much red tape America has. And if I was to say one thing that I think of that is denied us justice, it's just how arbitrary some of the rules are, and how they're just steeped in things that are a way of life that can only be defined of as racism. Yes. Yes, totally. Um, and can you give us a little bit of background on how you came to the United States? I came, uh, working, uh. As a student, I came as a student, uh, for my bachelor's. So I came on a student visa actually. Oh, awesome. What did you study? Where were you at political science and philosophy at a liberal arts women's college in Virginia? A quaint little school with, um, River flowing through it. It's really nice. Oh, that's awesome. So then did you right after college you start working in immigrant rights or how did you kind of get into it. Yeah, I think it was after I lost my own status. So, my status that expired, and so did some of the work that I was able to do, and I. I got involved with a friend who introduced me to a friend who really wanted to do this thing of forming a convening. And, uh, I got involved that way really I would say that the start of me fully doing organizing work. Was when we were beginning the black and undocumented convening and then thereafter me throwing myself fully in after that convening as we were forming the network. Before that, I think a lot of what I was doing was for survival, or other folks helping me to survive, quite frankly, some of the loopholes that we found out. Um, we're based on that and not quite me being an organizer. So I would say, I guess, in 2014 2015 when I started having those conversations that would become the undocumented and black convening and then more fully in 2016 after that convening. Is when I really started to throw myself into this work. Wow. And, and tell us a little bit more about what happened at that convening. Like how many people were there? What did you talk about? Things like that. Oh, it was so, it was magical. It was nothing short of magical. I've got to say. I remember after that, um, pledging to use my voice more and my, uh, Jamaican accent more. And I fiddle and faddle with it, but I've been trying, um, to really be myself. So imagine, uh, you know, we had a room full of folks who, uh, were different ages, different ages, all the way up to folks almost, uh, in their seventies and, uh, and then young people. And we had workshops throughout the weekend that were specific to different needs. Some were about, um, just the history of immigration. Some were the consequences, like deportation, defense, and how Black folks are targeted there. Some were workshops that were for healing, um, and had folks, you know, talking about the ways to achieve that and the ways they have achieved that. Mental health. And then we had the big space that went from everything from talking about immigration reform to talking about LGBTQ folks that we had present and trans folks and how different their lives are and what we need to be doing and what the hot topics are. I remember people fundraising immediately there like us pulling money out of our pocket, so that folks would be able to make it home safely to in the evening having like an open mic and folks dancing and and really being joyful and laughing and. Honestly, one of my favorite things is like just the lunch lines and we had good food because we believe as black people, we must have good food, planting must be there and rice and you know, all the good stuff. Um, and we were in the line. Uh, you know, and folks are just turning around being like what status do you have, what do you have, what are you on, where, how long have you been here and it was the first place truly that I could say that I was. honest about who I was now as an undocumented person and I felt safe. I felt safe to be there. That sounds so amazing. How inspirational, right? And just people are going to feel supported and safe. Like you said, getting together, it's, it's, it's so difficult to do and, uh, planning an event like that. Um, and you, you mentioned that you were surviving, you know, before this convening, probably during as well. What did you, how did you feel being out of status? What, what did you do to survive? It was hard. Um, you know, I think for most of us, we get income where we can. Um, and we end up having to do jobs that are really hard, domestic jobs, babysitting, nannying, I did that for several years. And I think, you know, there are different levels to how you feel it. So, you know, I, I now have chronic back pain. And last year was the first time I was able to get MRI scans done to know exactly what's wrong with my lower back and to get some relief from it actually. Right. But if I was to say when that started. I remember the day when I picked up the little boy that I was taking care of and he was just a baby and I lifted him up. And when I was coming back down, I couldn't come back down. My back went out, you know, and I remember during that time, I was living in New York and I was also doing care on weekends for another man who had a stroke. And so I had to lift him like he couldn't, uh, lift his body out the bed. And so, you know, you did all the home health, it's of bathing them and, and, and changing diapers and all this. And I didn't really know how to do it well. And so I threw my back out almost 10 years ago and did not get care for it until almost 10 years later. Oh, you know. Yeah, and you know, at the time I didn't have insurance. So, um, I remember going to the doctor at some point, and I remember just feeling really overwhelmed, um, with what, It would be that I would need to do as in my early 20s. I was scared. I didn't know it was Obama then but I remember when he had first brought out the health care program, New York had it that the card would cover more things regardless of status. And by the second year I think they figured, you know, that they were going to pull all that away. So by the time I realized like all that would perhaps have to go into both money or time neither of which I had. To fix this issue. I didn't do it, you know, and so it caused me years of pain and that's physical pain. Right. But I don't think that compares to what a lot of us and I love having undocumented because I don't feel alone with my stories, you know, um, I am the only one here from my family, my immediate family who is here in the United States. So, uh, as much as I've had, you know, like friends or a few family members who have been helpful, it's been very isolating a lot. And I thought that was perhaps unique, but it's not, you know, and so, um, we have a program at Andaki Black called Ayanda Circle. Where you get hooked up with like a cousin. That don't sound right. You get connected with someone who you call your cousin. And, um, you know, these are the things we were talking about. And I was like, whoa. So you get scared going into a government building to not just me, you don't want to use your password to fly not just me, you know, just, just real things that mess up your self esteem, quite frankly, you don't really realize it till it till later down the road. Yeah, yeah. Um, I yeah, let's let's segue into a little more about the undocu black network. You then after this convening, uh, got together with the people and decided to create this. What was the mission? What? Um, no, how did it happen? And when did you say, let's make it into a nonprofit and I'm going to run it like, how did all that happen? I love to hear that story. Um, we. Our mission was, and still is, that we wanted a multi generational network that employs policies and advocates for them, that transforms our realities, that, um, centers our wellness and our well being, and that creates our own media and narratives, and that makes organizing on the forefront so that more people can have access to these things and can come together. And yeah, after the convening, you know, we, it was, uh, 6 of us at a time, and we each got assigned people that we were going to talk to who had come. We had a list of questions and we would ask them what they wanted to see what they wanted to have. Um, and, you know, uh, the folks who had done the, the, the, the, the heavy lifting of the convening, they already had an idea of like some funders or what they could do. And the first two years we worked as volunteers, and we were fiscally sponsored to do the convening so we were in that type of 501 c three mix and nonprofit mix. And we. Went through a deep season of what is necessary. Lots of surveys of our membership and meetings and we did many convenings so after that large convening that year, we did three convenings immediately after in New York, in DMV, and in LA, all in one year, I don't know why we did this. Wow, we did. Yeah, you know, but it was just some momentum and folks are so excited to just get things done, and to meet with each other and this was before Trump's it was January before Trump came in. But. Folks really wanted to get things done. And then we kind of divided up the work amongst us based on our strong points. So I was really good at policy. So I did the policy work and, uh, wanted to be the policy coordinator. We were really mindful of like, hierarchy and how do we build this and how do we start it. And so we all call ourselves coordinators and we did it volunteer. Volunteer until we got some more funding and I was the second person to come on not just a volunteer, but kind of, you know, a contracting type of a thing, like a team is what we called it, and I moved to, to DC. To do that work, um, to be really in the heart of it and to meet with Congress and to do the work that would then really form the groundwork for what we are able to build on and the relationships were able to build on with Congressional Black caucus and all of that. And, and we leveraged what we already had within the network. Cause the thing is as undocumented black people, like We're still living, we're still here. And a lot of us have happened to either camouflage or have made their way one way or another to, uh, to be involved, right? So we had folks who were involved with building the Maryland Dream Act and the New York Dream Act, which just came to be not too long ago and, and folks who, um, um, Who were who had DACA or one of these other statuses like TPS. And so already worked in health care or, um, you know, Gabrielle, who's one of our co founders. She was a therapist and a social worker by trade. So folks had really, uh, if they could, and especially those who had access to things like DACA or TPS were able to access certain things that a lot of Us couldn't right. I didn't have those things. It was a little harder to access education beyond my first degree, but we pulled from that as much as we could because one of the things that we quickly realized was we had to be our own resources. You know, we really, really did. We were willing to take those risks. We were willing to ask those questions. We were willing to leverage relationships in ways that. Other folks who weren't black and undocumented were not doing in the immigration movement or even outside of it. And so I think that really gave us a runway and like adrenaline to just keep going and keep going and keep going. And then, of course, the overwhelming need that came after that. After the Trump presidency began, definitely. Wow. What a journey working for free for three years, but it's very common, right? For co founders of nonprofits to work for free for a while until they get until they get the funding and what type of services do you provide? I know you, you mentioned like the cousin one. What other services do you provide? And I know you have the events as well. Yes, so we talk a lot about facilitating resources, so not necessarily being as much direct services, but, uh, I suppose I suppose the two are almost used interchangeably. So, members are involved with media training. They're involved with learning how to do advocacy. So on the hill or. A lot of folks already know how so it's more about streamlining it and teaching everybody else. Um, and after COVID and, you know, side note, Congress has the hill has really taken this this thing to heart they enjoyed I think the fact that people couldn't come into the building. So even though now most of them are maskless and people are freer to roam, it's hard for you to actually meet with the officials without an official appointment. I'm doing scare codes I know no one can see it but yeah official appointments. Um, in order to do that. So, you know, in person with your senators and with your representatives, as you should be able to because we have trips of folks that would come in. To Washington, D. C. to do that advocacy, to have those conversations with those offices and to what extent you're doing that virtually, we also do that, um, we, we have, um, other relationships that we have with other folks, uh, other groups that, um, that do some of this joint work as well during the pandemic, we ended up being almost like a bank, you know, because, um, We couldn't access loans. That wasn't a thing. And it isn't a thing for many undocumented people. Like, we can't access loans. We can't get just money. We were not eligible for the stimulus package or any of the stipends, no matter what folks say. And we pay taxes just the same. So it's not a matter of that. It's just how things are written. And so We fundraise to allow folks who needed, you know, extra money for for for hardship needs to get that that that cash and that's not always the case but we really have shown up where we need to to. Uh, either provide the services ourself or provide access to the services for folks when we need it. Hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. That's awesome. So, so you also partner with other organizations. We had the, um, honor of interviewing Guerlain Joseph from Haitian Bridge Alliance. And, uh, yeah, and I've worked with them as well, um, at the border in Tijuana and, uh, helped a, a Haitian migrant shelter there. Um, in just we raised some money, so I, I'm, uh, 1 of the co founders of a volunteer group called rise to reunite where we help reunite families separate at the border and we. We try to visit these migrant shelters to, um, provide just, you know, a little bit of humanitarian aid, whatever we can, and we raise some money and we would, uh, buy, go to the supermarket there and get, you've got rice and beans and all that stuff for 100 families, um, Haitian families in, in Tijuana. And so we work with, um, one of the coordinators there at Haitian Bridge Alliance. So we, we love them very much. Um, is there, what kind of partnership do you have with them? Oh, really close with girly and so he's chambered alliance is a part of a formal coalition that we have called communities United for status and protection. But before that, we got connected some time ago. She wasn't at the convening herself, but we got connected before that. And I'm really close with her. And I deeply, deeply respect the work that they're doing. We just. Got back, uh, from the Texas Mexico border. I'd been there for the first time ever. Um, and man, it's, uh, you know, on the East Coast and here, um, we deal with a lot of detention and deportation defense, but there's certain places that many of us haven't been and don't go because we can't, you know, um, because of our statuses. I was able to do this trip and do something like this for the first time and I think when I compare it to DC and knowing how much is possible and knowing how things can be changed with a conversation. It really pissed me off, just to see. Just to see folks that are in shelters and how black folks are being treated. And it reinforced what I already know, which is that anti-blackness is universal. So we have the worst conditions. We get the, the, the, um, the last appointments to, uh, you know, and, and they're making us schedule asylum right now. And I'm probably talking in circles, but. The long and short of it is that, yes, very close to Haitian Bridge Alliance, very close to Gurleen, and two, having done this work the past few years without being in it firsthand, um, to see some of the shelters. I've seen what I see here in the interior of the United States, seeing how much it looks like that on the outside of the United States. Made me more angry and I perhaps give me more fuel that we have got to be really radical and make some changes so that all black people have the rights to migration. Um, no matter who they are or where they're coming from, or how much money they have, or which border of the United States they enter, or if they enter by air or sea or what. And that folks who are really. Vulnerable, like folks who need to seek asylum, which is an international human right, are able to do so, no matter their, their, their way of entry to the United States. It really cemented that for me. And we talked with folks who run some of the shelters and, you know, they told us even how they're able to help other migrants and how. The CBP will be open to some and not others. And by and large, the third common thread through all those stories was that black folks at the short end of the stick. And I'm so damn tired of it. It really is so different to read about it, watching on the news, right. And, and, and be in the U S and then go there and be like, Oh, how can people be treated like this? I, you know, I have the same experiences going there. It's so it's, they're always difficult trips for me. It's also amazing that I have the privilege to do it and to help and bring people to see it. Yeah, but it's so hard, like, coming and then coming back from that to my. You know, regular life and, and, and yeah, I mean, I, I just kind of imagine I'm so glad you're able to do that. Um, and, and, and see that I have seen the differences between the Haitian shelter and a central American shelter in terms of the amount of help it's again, it's all from donations. Right? So it's really about who's helping them. And, and, and this specific Haitian shelter has, you know, they're living in tents and, and every time it rains in L. A. I, I think, oh, my gosh, it must be raining in Tijuana and all these shelters and how, how are they dealing with that? If their floor is like dirt and, and they're intense and it just, it's, it's, um. It's just so difficult and I'm just so glad that you've been able to, to see that and it does, it brings me more fuel every time I go. Sometimes I don't think I have any more. And then you do, you do and bringing other people is, is really important. Yeah, the one other thing with that, I'd say that folks showed us there too. So we went to, um, Different places in Matamoros and in Reynosa and in Matamoros I remember distinctly seeing like the remnants of water tanks and like pipes. And so we went with one of the local groups that does work there, and they told us, look how this land is looking right now with just tents. And burnt garbage and open fecal matter and no porta potties are running water. This isn't what it looked like before and that they as organizers and their own small community groups had put things in place so that there could be more and it was demolished and it was demolished in Congress. They get to understand with the United States government. And those things pissed me off because sometimes it's almost like that invisible hand. And I think for us who have been through some stuff, we know what's going on. And sometimes we can't prove it, but to hear it there was something else. And they had mentioned and we talked to a few folks that were even there and that, uh, Jill Biden had been there, um, before, while they were running for election and made all these promises. Oh my gosh. Well documented. And then shortly after the place was bulldozed. So I think just seeing how politics really is a part of all of this and how we could have it better and we have had it better. And when folks do have it better, it's taken away from them. Frustrates me and makes me even more angry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, don't even get me started about the president. I, we had these hopes. I had a little, other people had really high hopes and I just had like a little bit of hope. That is still worse than what I thought. Um, did you, when you were coming back, did you still have a little fear that you wouldn't be able to come back? Oh, a hundred percent. I got into a whole argument with people out there, you know, or we had had a permission and I was like, I don't care. I, I, until I actually make it back, I don't know. And this is terrifying. Um, you know, the fear doesn't, doesn't go away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Um, what advice would you give some young, um, undocumented black people who are kind of struggling and, and, um, just trying to find themselves or identity and their place in life? Like, what kind of advice would you give them? Connect with folks who really want to be free. I would also say, say no often. Say no often to when you're told that a process is impossible. And I've come to appreciate it more the deeper that I am in this work, and where it is a concrete no, investigate how you can change that and surround yourself with people that are really committed to making that change. And sometimes that's people that are on the same wavelength as you, or have are also black undocumented people and don't. The third thing I would say is don't, don't deny or let people tell you that your voice isn't important or doesn't matter. I've worked with people who've been doing immigration work and I didn't even know it was a whole thing by itself or a whole movement by itself for years, and there are things that they don't know or have not focused on and nothing beats. My experience, our experience as black undocumented people, and it is a plethora of experiences right from folks who have come here on a work visa diplomat. crossed a northern border, southern border without inspection, um, from Africa, from the Caribbean, from somewhere in between, refugee, asylee. There are so many complexities to who we are. And we have got to complicate the narrative about who we are in this country and the fact that we are even here. And so I would say to young people, You know, who are new to this surround yourself with people who, uh, understand you and want to understand you, um, and build those connections, especially with people who are black and undocumented continue to push back, especially when you hear the nose and do not doubt yourself because your expertise by itself. Counts leaps and bounds and will help you. Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. Amazing advice. Do you feel that you're getting the right responses from these older nonprofits, you know, that focus more on central American, um, Latin X and documented populations, Asian American, um, uh, immigration organizations are, do you feel there is. Kind of collaboration teamwork happening with other organizations, or do you feel kind of alone in terms of your network? Here's what I think. I think that there are many reasons that the immigration movement has not moved forward. And I boil it down to about three things I guess I like threes. And one is a fear. So a lot of folks. They'll start out even to change how they're doing things, but they have a fear based on what failed in the past, what bill didn't go through, what they tried that didn't work, who got deported, not to discount those stories, but we can't cling to them. I think ego, and to the extent that we've gotten help, there could be a lot more in other ways. I look at even just the instinct about who to uplift and how to do the work. Girlie may have shared and was on it, it has circulated a little bit on media about a little girl from Honduras, she was black. Who died a couple of weeks ago. She died within a few weeks of us leaving, um, uh, you know, uh, that part, I think she was from Reno. And it was either Reno or Matamoros. I'm very confident she was in one of those areas, Matamoros, because she crossed into Brownsville and she was held in detention for 10 days. We're only supposed to hold children or families for two days, according to Biden's own rules, and he was held. She was held for 10 and she was really sick. She was eight years old. And they didn't take her to the hospital until she was almost dead and that upsets me so much and you know, it's been a little under two weeks since she died and I don't see the outreach. That I'm supposed to see all around and I get it maybe some folks don't know but I still need that outreach. Yeah. And so I think I remember when George Floyd happened, and folks, all of a sudden, kicking up, and I get it, you know, there was a lot of protests and there was a push, but I wish that momentum stayed. And I think it's become so common to not keep it up. And I forgive black folks, especially because I think we're like black non immigrant organizations. I do think that we have been thrown a lot of things. Yeah, I forgive. A lot of us were not prominent in the immigrant rights groups movement so you know Asian American folks are Asian immigrants as well. Um, and we work with a lot of folks from Nepali, Nepal, and then also folks from Nakasek, which is another close organization, you know, Adhikar for Nepal and Nakasek for Korean American and other folks. I really forgive a lot of other folks. Um, because, you know, at some point, your presence in numbers doesn't mean that you don't stand up for or acknowledge The numbers that are less than you and and I suppose we could offer this critique to all of us right like we really have to stand for the folks that are at the margins, you know, I think we can do a better job doing that for disabled folks and folks who are trans and other folks that are at the margins and bringing them into the center because if you take care of those folks you will take care of everyone else. I don't think we're doing a good enough job about that and I think that lands on ego that, you know, folks have for so long said, Well, I'm doing a great job and I'm smart and I've got this and I've got that and so if the new idea and the new thing doesn't sound like theirs, or isn't theirs, they won't run with it. And then I think the third that we were just kind of talking about just now, and Julian as well is like the proximity. to pop political power. In this case, I suppose Democrats and so there are ways that I've seen folks lift up Biden that I am disgusted because, oh my gosh, you know, we just can't and I understand that he may have done some good things in other arenas, but on immigration he's been pissed for he's been really, really terrible. And so, you know, we have to be mindful of that and then when we still had the trifecta of him. The Senate and the House, there were ways for us to move things that were not moved because folks were worried about what it was going to do to shake up the Senate or the democratic establishment. And, you know. That fear, that ego and that proximity to political power is deadly. You have got to make up your mind that you want to make some things happen. And if that means that some systems get destroyed, they get destroyed. Because you want the greater good, and I think that takes a level of pain and understanding that is not common, and that is very common, I think, in the Black undocumented experience, because as Black people, in a lot of ways, that's been our legacy, especially here in the Western world. Thank you so much for your honesty. About that, um, I agree that I, I feel that there's not enough done for the undocumented black people. Um. I don't know if it's also could be capacity. Um, but I, I, I have seen the past few years. I think with Grelin's help, because she's so, um, popular in the media that it is coming up more people are noticing, um, you know, I'm an immigration attorney. So I work with people all over the world, but I'm always telling people who want to help. I said, there are black people who are immigrants to. Right, I mean, immigration is a black issue that kind of that messaging I feel is coming out a little bit more. I do feel that. You know, definitely needs to be more coalition building the more we work together, the more we can move. Um, unfortunately, I can't speak for all those organizations, but. I do feel that, you know, since I was young, that that's the way to go. Um. I hope you, you continue to get the support that you need and, and, and from that, how can people get involved with your organization? One of the best ways I think is to follow us on all the socials, or I gotta take that back, three main ones, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. I think we also have a TikTok. And I think that's just a good place to connect to see what our real time things are looking like. Undocublock. org is our website. Uh, that, uh, it's not fully up to date, but it's a good gateway as well. Mm-Hmm. to get in touch with us. I'm not currently on socials. I have taken a break. Uh, good. Any of those , thank you. You have to, you have to do that. It's great. It was helpful, you know, it just became too much, too fast, too soon. Oh my gosh. And so I had to go. But here we go. Yeah, did, uh, and if for people who want to donate, they can go on the website. I mean, is that how you're funding yourselves right now? Some grants, some donations, personal donations, they can go to your website and donate. Yes, they can absolutely do that. I think it's actually undocumented black. org for a slash donate, and they can do that automatically as well. Thank you. Yeah, no, of course. That's, you know, that's what we're here for. Um, when we publish this, we'll have all your handles and everything, uh, the, uh, for, for people to look you up. Hopefully you could get some help. Do you get volunteers or do you need volunteers as well? We have not boosted up our volunteer program as much, but. I would say, or and also to sound like a true organizer, um, if there are things that folks are doing, you know, whether it's health clinics or mental health offerings or, um, uh, work arounds with, with, with money or any of those direct things, things like that, and they would like to get in touch to a partner, um, that would be really cool to do as well. Or I don't know, perhaps you're a journalist or something and you want to do some sort of a letter writing campaign or something like that. And you want to know how to do that or to organize such a thing with other volunteers. I think I welcome that as well. Um, to get some of that done and also, I mean, I welcome people doing that on their own to like, uh, you know, just give us a heads up. Um, I've, we've had people who, you know, uh, we're artists and they did like comics and stuff for a week and had the proceed to go to undocumented black and it was related to our content. You know, um, we've had folks be really creative with what they're doing and, and bring folks in as well. And all of those things are helpful because. Yeah. The reality is that, you know, we don't, we don't live single issue lives like Audre Lorde said that we live multi issue lives and that's true. And so as much as we need the help and to dig in and immigration movement work as it were. We also need the red tape to be stripped from every aspect of society, so that people are able to get housing, get healthcare, get into school. And so, a lot of what you can do. Thank you. Is literally in your own world, and that's really cool as well. Yes. Yes. Thank you. I'm glad you listed those skill sets that you, you could use because you never know who's listening right and who's available. Thank you so much Patrice honestly for, for your dedication to this work. You're so inspirational you fired me up, even more. Now I know I need to do even more. So, and I'm going to look into the work that you've done as well. This is exciting and it's good to connect with like minded people. And honestly, to just take a break sometimes to talk about this stuff and the wins and the, the, the stuff that you're going through, definitely. Well, thank you. Keep it going, Patrice. And we'll definitely be in touch. We'll have to interview again, you again, for sure. Thank you. Sure. Thank you. This podcast is intended for general education and informational purposes only and should not be regarded as either legal advice or a legal opinion. You should not act upon or use this publication or any of its contents for any specific situation. Recipients are cautioned to obtain legal advice from their legal counsel with respect to any decision or course of action contemplated in a specific situation. 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