36. Trump’s Zero Tolerance Policy and how RAICES Showed Up – Faisal Al-Juburi, Chief External Affairs Officer for RAICES

On the 36th episode of Immigration Today! Angeline Chen welcomes Faisal Al-Juburi. Faisal is a strategic partnerships specialist with more than a decade of experience in the nonprofit sector. He currently serves as the Chief External Affairs Officer for RAICES, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit agency founded in 1986, and the largest immigration legal services provider in Texas.

Faisal is the son of Iraqi immigrant parents. He was born in Cincinnati and grew up in Little Rock and D.C. His parents taught him about the power of servicing others from a young age and Faisal has carried these values with him through his work in philanthropy. Throughout his work with RAICES, he has seen the non-profit grow and take on a leadership position in the immigration rights movement. Their work in 2018 during Trump’s Zero Tolerance policy, which resulted in the separation of hundreds of families, was pivotal in their growth and all of the work they continue to do today.

With legal and social services, paired alongside litigation and advocacy for systems change, RAICES is operating on the national frontlines of the fight for the rights of immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers.

You can keep up with RAICES Texas on their website, Instagram and Facebook. You can also make a donation here and volunteer here. Follow Faisal on Linked-in. Immigration Today! is always releasing new content.  Please subscribe to our immigration newsletter to stay up to date with any new episodes.

DISCLAIMER – This podcast is intended for general informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice or a solicitation to provide legal services. The information in this podcast is not intended to create, and receipt of it does not constitute, a lawyer-client relationship. Listeners should not act upon this information without seeking professional legal counsel. The views and opinions expressed in the podcast represent those of the individual speaker only and are not necessarily the views of Clark Hill PLC.

Transcript

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Hello, everyone. It's Angeline Chen. Welcome to Immigration Today, where I interview leaders, advocates, experts, and volunteers in immigration and immigrant rights on the issues, their experiences, and how you can make a difference. Today, we have phasal algebra. He is a strategic partnership specialist with more than a decade of experience in the nonprofit sector. Algebra A currently serves as a Chief External Affairs Officer for RAICES. Previously, he held positions at the John F. Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts, New York Restoration Project, and SOLEA, a leader in cross cultural exchange. He holds an M. S. in Corporate Communications from New York University, and a B. A. in History from the University of Virginia. Raices, Texas. It's a 501c3 nonprofit agency founded in 1986 and the largest immigration legal services provider in Texas. With legal and social services paired alongside litigation and advocacy for systems change, RAICES is operating on the national front lines of the fight for the rights of immigrants, refugees, and asylum seekers. Faisal, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. Thank you. I know you are so, so busy. Really appreciate your time. Um, is it okay if we get right into the conversation? Let's do it. Awesome. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about yourself and just how did you become interested in philanthropy? I appreciate that. Um, uh, my name is Faisal. My family is from Iraq. Um, my parents immigrated in the late 70s, along with my eldest sister, and there really hadn't been the anticipation of, uh, of actually building a life here, but world circumstances and conflict, um, sort of led to us putting down roots in the U. S. I grew, I was born in Cincinnati, grew up, um, first in Little Rock and then in, uh, the D. C. suburbs, um, and, uh, we were always kind of fish out of water in a way, um, and always straddling sort of two worlds, um, but what my parents always led with me as a kid was, you Was this notion of service and that we are all in service to one another in this life. And I really found that to be beautiful from a, from a values perspective. And it's what, um, I'm sort of rooted in myself and that that's something that I've been able to take with me wherever I've gone personally and professionally. And, uh, specifically with philanthropy, it's an opportunity to guide. And resources to issues that matter the opportunity to really practice it in the space of, uh, and in the immigrant rights landscape, um, is something that's deeply meaningful to me again, because of that, that personal history and also aware. Being back and paying it forward. Um, that was born out of, that was born out of my family. That's awesome. That's awesome. So how did it start for you? Like, did it start, were you volunteering in high school and college? Like how did, providing service for people? When did that start and how? Uh, it's, it's, it's a great question organically, I think, you know, and so I would definitely say probably more so around, um, around high school. Uh, I grew up. Um, I was a senior in high school, uh, at the time of September 11th. And so, uh, the, and was in, uh, you know, right, right outside of DC when September 11th, um, happened, um, I was in high school in the Alexandria, Virginia area. And so it's something that, uh, you know, moments away from the Pentagon. And, uh, it's something that definitely literally hit close to home, right? Um, and, and for me, it was One of those moments to, to lean in and remind myself that there wasn't this us them dichotomy there didn't need to be, um, that there was a grave human tragedy and that we could grieve and be in community together. Um, but it's also, it was a fascinating moment for me too, because there very much was the impulse. Within my community, uh, to begin that us them bifurcation that I'd really I'd felt as a young boy during the, um, the first school for, uh, and, um, in the early 90s and this concept of. One half of me, uh, the, the Iraqi, the Arab half of me, the Muslim half of me is inherently the bad. And, uh, the American side of me is the good, and they're now at war with each other. And it, that has definitely fueled the work that we're doing at Raices, that I'm doing at Raices, because so much of what we're seeing right now as well is. Um, with an immigration policy and practice is actually rooted in systems that were established and post 9 11 sort of fear mongering with the creation of D. H. of the Department of Homeland security. So, um, so I say that to say that there is a, everything is. Interlinked for me, and there's context and connection in my life, uh, is, is, is why I'm really, I'm really proud to represent Raíces to be doing the work that we're doing right now in the immigrant rights movement, um, because I feel like my life was leading to this. It's super interesting, super interesting about the us them and about the differences in the culture. And I, I definitely deal with that as well. Being a Chinese American born here with immigrant parents and not really belonging in China or Thailand, where my serve from and not necessarily belonging here either, but then also having the, because of COVID, what has happened and having the Asian hate and having, you know, I get, I get that, like, there's part of me that. Yeah. Is not liked in the part of me that is just trying to balance between those two. Um, I think we're all looking for belonging, right? Like, I think that that's it. And I think that 1 of the hardest things in any of these socio political sort of conversations that. Um, we have is that bottom line, what we have to do is we have to dehumanize someone in order to not, um, in order to be able to push forward an agenda sometimes, right? Like the end of the day, if you realize like we're all humans, we're all seeking the very same basic sort of forms of connection and a place. And if you think too much about that. Then sometimes maybe some of the policies and practices, um, that, uh, people are advocating for, um, our elected officials are advocating for, uh, become a little bit more complicated to reckon with. Um, and, and I think that that's why specifically around talking about any type of immigrants, uh, immigrant peoples here in the U S you end up seeing a lot of headlines. That are rooted in either sort of terminology of war or of like water, right? Like surge influx Yeah, and And and it's in a way to make you forget that they're actually just families just people and children Mm hmm. It's it really is just so insane and and it hasn't It's only getting worse. It feels like it's just getting worse. Like the more, uh, you know, even after 9 11, then you have Trump, then you have zero tolerance policy. And then you have Biden like, Oh, wow, we have all this hope. And it just doesn't look like it's much getting better. Um, tell us a little bit more, uh, about now. What does right? He says do. Yeah. So, um, as you shared with everyone, uh, RA's was founded in 1986 Mm-Hmm.. Um, it was a grassroots organization. Uh, started off as a two person team. It was born out of the sanctuary movement in the 1980s. Um, uh, headquartered in San Antonio. And, uh, became a, uh, Department of Justice accredited, um, legal services provider in 1993. Um, and that has been the core of the programming for the past 30 years now, um, uh, focusing on providing affirmative and, uh, deportation defense, uh, legal services. For immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, um, in addition, uh, in 2017, we started our refugee, uh, resettlement program, uh, in 2017 was the 1st year that Texas. Stopped working as an intermediary, the state of Texas stopped working is like the intermediary for refugee resettlement agencies with the office of refugee resettlement. Um, and so, uh, it was a moment that we actually. Sort of stepped in as increased infrastructure was being built within Texas through private partners. So our national partner. Um, brought us, uh, into the space as a local service provider. And that's a program that's continued to grow, um, where we, you know, where we receive, um, refugee families, um, including our Afghan special immigrant visa holders and also humanitarian parolees over the last few years, um, provide. Uh, reception and placement services, uh, housing, school matriculation, uh, job placement services, um, access to health, financial assistance, um, everything that you need to sort of put down roots in, uh, in a new, in a new country and a new community. And we took on refugee resettlement programming because we looked at it as a potential model for what. A humane approach to asylum could look like in the U. S. Um, because our attorneys are client advocates are on the front lines and detention centers. Um, which I really call, like, immigration prisons at the end of the day in terms of the circumstances. Yeah, uh, we, again, words, again, matter, right? Like, it's that sometimes, as you say, it's a shelter, it's a detention center, it's a family residential center was my favorite. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, I, uh. Pushing it. Yes. And so they're on the, you know, they're on the front lines looking at how essentially people are. It's parents and children are being imprisoned for seeking the right to safety, security, um, trying to pursue sort of the human and legal right. To asylum in the US, uh, and, uh, essentially being criminalized for it, uh, the end of the day. And so, um, you know, we look at refugee resettlement programming as, you know, this is what things could look like really, um, at the end of the day, and what we hope sort of asylum could look like in the future. That's great. That's great. So rice has got a lot of attention around 2018 when Trump had implemented the zero tolerance policy where, um, the government was separating families at the border. We're seeking asylum that really hit the news. Um. And, and raises was really in the forefront of that. And I'm so grateful for you. And now, of course, there are a lot of organizations helping and things like that, but how much has it grown from kind of, you know, before the zero tolerance policy came out and then kind of now, like, how, how big is it? For sure. Yeah. So, uh, zero tolerance policy. We got thrust into the spotlight. Um, and, uh, I mean, gratefully, so we'd been working specifically with unaccompanied children at that point, um, for about nine years at that point and had been working within the, um, within family detention centers for about five years at that point. So it was a, uh, you know, we were, we'd known the space, we were on the ground, we were doing the work and we. We're thrilled to have the opportunity to, um, provide the platforms, um, for these stories and these voices to be heard. Uh, and, uh, we grew considerably from sort of pure size and function, right? We were less than 7 million annual life operating budget and 2017. Uh, we have. Grown to essentially be roughly between a 30 to 35 million organization annually. Uh, our amazing, uh, and our staff size has, has grown considerably as well. Uh, about, um, you know, from roughly 150 people to roughly 300 people. Um, so we've doubled in size. Uh, what it's allowed us to do though, is really look at. How can we increase the depth of impact on the community members that we serve? And how do we build out our infrastructure, uh, in order to be able to make long term investments, um, that can secure the greatest chance of success within, uh, with an immigration court, right? When you look at the last 25 years of data. Uh, it's about 4 percent of, of those, uh, who have, um, uh, had immigration proceedings, uh, immigration court in Texas, um, have received some type of relief, right? That right now, about 22%, um, have legal representation, uh, that is a, um, there's a direct correlation between those who have legal representation and those who are able to have some type of, find some type of relief, um, within the system, but, what a lot of people don't realize is that, These are sometimes years long. Oh, yeah. Geez. And I, and I don't think, like, so you speak about family separation, we're still working on several cases. We'd been working with over 50 families that had been separated. Uh. Under under the zero tolerance policy, uh, also in terms of their, their continued sort of a pursuit of, um, of restitution. Um, uh, the, uh, there's an interesting story that you're, you're, you're listeners might. Enjoy hearing from a like a context standpoint is that sometimes we say as an organization cruelty is the point right and you can never really speak to people's intentions except for around zero tolerance. It is well documented that none like we, we are implementing some of these extreme measures in order to deter people from immigrating right like we want to make a point. And so. Uh, there is a scenario where we had, um, clients who were, uh, at a family detention center, fathers and sons, uh, 13 fathers and sons, um, pairs who were, uh, reunited within detention, um, in that summer of 2018, and then re separated, uh, for a brief period of over a day, but re separated as It's essentially mental, mental, uh, games, uh, torture, torture to, yeah, no, thank you for saying it. Yeah. It's to torture for torture. And, you know, we, we represented, um, we can't speak to the specifics of, but, uh, it's out there. Um, we represented those 13 families, um, in, uh, in their suit against, uh, geo group, which is. Uh, private prison contractor that, um, again, people need to know is that these detention, these, these ice detention centers are immigration prisons that are run by private prison contractors. So, by Geo by CoreCivic, uh, and so, um, you know, we represented them and, uh, were able to secure some relief for them. Um, but that was a 4 year case. From 2019 filing to resolution at the beginning of this year. So, uh, that's where we are. Um, so from 2018 onward, we're still working on a lot of those cases as well as dealing with what's happening in real time because family separation is kind of a function of the U. S. immigration policy. Not specifically what happened under zero tolerance of the physical tearing apart of like a mother from child. Right. But it's, it metastasizes and fascinating ways. Um, but part of the, the intention there is to, is to make you give up. Right. Like, you're, you're breaking people off from their. From their support system from their ecosystem. It's it's breaking people down. And, um, and so we see it in very many ways. We see it continuing to today where there's been a very troubling pattern of, uh, fathers, um, at the border being separated from their, um, from their spouses and their children of them being, um, taken in and charged, um, uh, For criminal trespassing, um, while then, uh, the rest of their family goes into the immigration system. And then sometimes it can be minimum of months until, um, they're reunited. So. I'm glad you say that because it is still happening and I was just in San Diego, a few weeks ago, because right now CBP in Tijuana releasing some of the asylum seekers onto the street. Buses are being picked up by nonprofits and helping them do intakes and finding, you know, finding out where they need to go and, and all of that. And, uh, and they are looking for their family who, you know, they came together with, it could be a sibling and these specific people I was working with were adults, but spouses and people, they just, they came together. They were separated. One is, you know, in another state and trying to find where they are. And it's so, it's so ridiculous why CBP would not just keep them together. And they're just not trying to make things easy. And then us volunteers and these nonprofits need to make up for that. Like for that. And it's just, it makes me super upset. And I'm, and I want people to realize that it's still happening. Um, and, and also for children where. Yeah. Let's say it's the technically the parent, but it's not a biological mother or father, and they don't have the paperwork. It's like an aunt and, you know, they just don't have birth certificates saying or legal document for custody there. You know, they could be separated as well. So it's just, it really is so inhumane. You've said before, um, I need to go out to Texas to volunteer for you guys too. Yes, that would be great. And it's, uh, It's yeah, and I, I also tell you for the last year as there have been sort of continued sort of, uh, Threats to really the spirit of asylum right like I think I have I've continued to say well okay if we no longer want to be a nation that provides asylum let's have that conversation right like but that's not the conversation that's being had it becomes like a very it's a semantics thing of like oh yes no we have an app now. Yeah, CBP one. Exactly. Um, and, and I laugh because It's I mean, it does feel dystopian in a way sometimes, right? Like, and it's just, you're just like, well, I gotta, I just, it's so preposterous that sometimes I have to laugh, because, um, otherwise it would just be so frightening. But I think the sad thing is now, though, is that We actually are having the conversation about whether or not we care about asylum, um, as an American value right now in terms of the bipartisan congressional, um, sort of, uh, whatever negotiations that are, uh, that have been reported on this week, um, about the, you know, the potential of limiting further asylum and humanitarian parole, uh, in exchange for, um, continued funding for, uh, Um, Support of wars in Ukraine and elsewhere, right? So it's my god. Yeah It is. Um, it's it can be it can be disheartening and I think um It can be . It's very easy, it's very attractive to sort of end up in a very nihilistic state, but, mm-Hmm, . What I also continue to remind myself is that nihilism is a tool of white supremacy as well, right? Like that is, it is. It's, it's kind of like the point of family separation. It's meant to make, you just want to give up, right?. Yeah. And. Um, at the end of the day, we see so many sort of powerful moments of what can, what can exist if we center humanity, right? And I don't want to sound trite, but like, really, like, what are the, the opportunities that can exist for those that we serve when we put their needs and interests first? And how can that then further sort of benefit the whole right I think it's so many of the conversations to me also just feel very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face right like it's like this it is this um, uh, the the disdain for immigrants, um, that's within the national narrative at is, uh, is, is, is self defeating I think here in the US, um, And also, it's not a popular opinion, but it's one that I feel compelled to share is it's not. It's not about one party or the other. I usually say that it's really easy to be nonpartisan when you're working in the immigration landscape, because really, both sides of the aisle have, um, have aggrieved, um, us, uh, yeah, as a community and. And I think what I've seen specifically is that right when you start looking at how did things start shifting in the last 20 plus years, right? With the creation of Department of Homeland Security where, um, customs and border protection and, you know, and, uh, ice, um, you know, fall under, right? Where do you, uh, uh, starting of, you know, family detention on mass, um, You, uh, you start to see that really it was under the Obama administration that nationally this good versus bad immigrant narrative really started to take place and people felt like felt excused to be able to be like, Oh, yeah, no, no, no. I like the good immigrants. But what about the bad ones? Yeah, I have those conversations all the time. Uh huh. Yeah. I don't know how you navigate it. Um, but to me, yeah. It rattles me still. Yeah. I'll have people who say, okay, I'm trying to help this person. You know, he has his engineer, um, want to hire him and H one B, you know, he's not one of those illegals, you know, it's just like, oh, and I can't. It's like, do I want to get into it right now? Do I want to get into it right now? Yeah. And I'll make maybe 1 statement. Well, you know, that's probably not an appropriate and not appropriate to say, but and then I just keep keep going speaking regular because, you know, they're a potential client as well. But, um. Yeah, it really, it really is a problem. There's one thing that I was always thinking about was when, you know, obviously I've been doing immigration for 20 years. So when 2018 came along with the zero tolerance policy, a lot of people who were not normally interested in immigration came out and wanted to help. There were a lot of, um, you know, I got a lot of calls and, and, um, you Recruit a lot of volunteers to the border to help and they just they didn't know anything. They just wanted to help or want to do a fundraiser or they just knew something was wrong. Like, you know, babies were being taken from their mothers and like, there's these are people and that was that was really interesting. I feel like did we do end up. Doing a good job and continuing to kind of mobilize these new people, right? And, and then bring more awareness and, and, and have them continue to be involved in the community. And I, again, I'm just one person and I, and it's hard for me to, I was like, Oh yeah. Sometimes I think about, Oh yeah, what about, you know, so and so she did this like fundraiser the day I should contact her and things like that. Because now that it's not as popular on the news, they go to their own lives. But I think they. You know, there are people still really interested. I feel like there's, we need to kind of, and I don't know how you feel about that because I'm sure a lot of people came out of the woodwork who, you know, just, oh my gosh, I want to help and whether or not we're keeping those people involved. I don't know. What do you feel? Yeah, it's a, um, it's one of my favorite questions actually. It was like, it's a loaded one. It's a lot to unpack there, but, um, for sure we For a little bit of context, actually raices ended up sort of making, you know, taking a sort of leadership position, um, during family separation during zero tolerance because of a campaign facebook fundraising campaign that we didn't start for ourselves that went viral. Um, and so it was actually kind of everything was kind of happenstance. Um, but it was what I can say that was beautiful about that is that. In five days, over 500, 000 people donated, um, over 20 million. And so amazing. We, uh, from a, um, also even just from a pure crowdsourcing standpoint, we're really that first social justice cause that started making the tens of millions of dollars from five, you know, 10, 15 increments. Um, uh, and so you. And you saw that people just people wanted to be able to make a difference. People wanted to be able to make, um, some type of impact, um, on the lived experiences of these of these families. And, um, it was beautiful to see you see. It was the juxtaposition to some of the worst that you see within this, um, with it working within immigration, right? You see some of the best in humanity as well. Yeah. And, um, we had people volunteering, families coming and volunteering and meeting, you know, helping to post bonds, meeting people at, um. At the bus station to make sure that they could get off to their next destination, um, uh, of, uh, ensuring that they had access to, um, to food, um, to housing, that, uh, they had community guides, right? With, um, so that they could understand their bearings, understand what resources were available to them. And there was Such, and I'm, I'm, I'm pausing with my words because I will say something else that I don't want to negate this, um, there was, it was true authenticity, like of, of intentions. But I think, uh, what I've recognized, um, is that for many as well, that an act in support of our immigrant community members was for many, I'm not saying everyone, but for many, I think subconsciously, uh, more, less of a pro immigration act and more of a symbolic sort of action against what's a certain elected official represented. And I think what's also really fascinating when you look at the data, because I'm a mess, I'm, I love human behavior, like understanding human behavior, and also looking at sort of the data behind that. And for so many that became involved in the movement in that period of time, they, it was the first time That they started to self identify as Democrats, like that became a key self identifying factor for them. Interesting. And so now you're in a place where, look, some of the worst of the former administration's policies continue to be enacted, variations of them. Um, and I think right now, if you say that the current party in office. Is still causing harms or community creates a sick. It appears to me that it creates this existential triggers this existential crisis within that within within those who were supporters before because you're saying I've just spent several years embracing and identifying factor like this this attributes because I thought that it meant. It stood for everything good and right. Um, what does that mean if we were saying that there are still wrongs being committed? And I think that also very much speaks to from a human nature standpoint, and then especially I would say. You know, within the West of this, it's right. Wrong. Good. Bad. Um, I'm a guy who's always shades of gray, right? I was like, no, everything's really nuanced. You know, there it's, it's very rare that you, you're on the extreme on either side. Right? Like, it's like, yeah. Um, but nuance is very hard to capture. And so we're so, we are trained to think of things within a, it's either this or that. And um, and so I think that that's been a struggle for, uh, many of those who have come into, you know, who came into the movement at, you know, in 2018, 2019, I think, um, really what's beautiful about it in some ways of what happened in that moment is it actually A model by which it trains society in a model of rapid emergent crisis response fundraising for really important social justice causes. And so what people instinctively came together to do in a moment for us. Um, at RA's and within the immigration landscape, uh, could be replicated, um, as we've seen in other years, in recent years in in, in other, um, in other areas of need of intention. Um, uh, and. That's the good the, the, the, the complicated of that is that I think we are also training ourselves as a society to think it's about a moment of time. Let's put in all of our efforts in 1 moment in time. And then we should have solved the problem. Let's move to the next. Yeah, yeah. I feel that way. I feel I see that a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't I don't, uh, right again to shades of gray. There are pros and cons to everything. Um, uh, and. I think, um, but I think it's conditioning. It could also just be sort of the nature of where we're at from even from a social media perspective, right? Like, right now, like, when you look at if you're working in any type of external affairs context, and you're looking at the data of. How long people pay attention to like a video message, right? Shorter and shorter. Exactly. So it's down to like in the beginning, like, right, like when I first started, we were like, you know, they're like, okay, like 30 seconds, right? And we got down to 15 seconds, and then it got down to six seconds. And you're like, I don't know. And it's like, well, like, actually, it's getting a little shorter than that. And you're like, What can, what message can someone deliver? Like one second. Yeah, exactly. Just a flash. I can't even read the words. No words. There's no words anymore. Yeah. Well, let's get into a little bit of external affair because that's what you do, right? Yeah. Um, yeah. Tell us a little bit about your role. And so I think for me, it's like, so this is the intersection with, you know, so the intersection of the fundraising philanthropy, it's the, it's the advocacy work with the sort of traditional communications work, um, uh, and, you know, um, uh, and it's about sort of public engagement and how. Are you delivering messages in a way that people will receive them? Right? And I think what's been what's kind of been so meaningful to me about this work in particular is that, um, right. He says actually did not have. We didn't we didn't have a fundraising department. We didn't have communication. We didn't have any of that before 2018. Right? So those are these are all outgrowths of that. Um. And what's really important to me is that well, so there's no expectation of how things should be right versus, um, uh, you know, how they could be and, uh, I have really found it important to essentially dismantle some of the, some of the tropes that you find in philanthropy, um, like the helper narrative, right? Like, like the, um, Um, Like the, the savior, right? It's the, how do you tell stories in a way that doesn't denigrate? The population that you're advocating with and so one of the things early on that I recognize is that so we're all part of a community. We're all part of an ecosystem. We all have a role. We all have an important role within that. And so whether you're a service provider or service recipient or service supporter, right? Like, it's the. It's that we all have our own place here. Um, and a community sort of signals that sort of that circle versus like, across lines and, you know, and divisions. And so that's something that we've really, we've really and sometimes to the detriment of fundraising, if I'm going to be honest, right? Like, because sometimes we don't tap into some of what's the public at large has been, um. Sort of trained in of like, let me give a donation to feel better about myself. Oh, totally. Let me absolve myself of like some guilt in the moment or, uh, and, and what I really, so I think that philanthropy in the same way as advocacy, it's all about how do you educate, how do you educate in order to mobilize different groups to be able to make a difference? In a shared cause, um, a shared area of interest and belief and, you know, how do you do it, especially within immigration in a way that. Maybe doesn't even sort of demand that they, they meet you where you, like you, they meet you where you are. Right. Like, it's like, maybe it's like, maybe it's the, this is a convoluted subject. I respect that. I understand that it's unclear specifically because it's, you know, clear as kind in my opinion, you know, like, that's my favorite saying clear as kind. I think immigration policy is unclear, um, because it is meant to be unkind. And, um, and so it's the, how can I. I'm not going to ask you maybe to understand all the nuance of immigration policy. That's too much. Not even every attorney, you know, functioning in this space knows it. Totally. I'm going to ask you to come maybe a few steps further from, from your comfort zone maybe, right. And then I'll like, and then I'll meet you closer. Right. And, and then I will. I will not shame you for not understanding, um, not getting it, but I'm also going to hold you accountable. Like when you become a donor to Raices, you are then held accountable to learning. Um, and I find that to be really important. And maybe that's because for me, as you mentioned, I got my history degree, right? Like I'm a student of history. I think we have to. I think we have to learn where I think we have to learn where we've come from. I think we have to learn what has happened before us. So we do not repeat. Um, we don't become those. We don't become forever subjected, um, to repeating the mistakes of the past. Um, uh, I am also a believer that if we are actually going to make a difference as advocates in our own rights, um, that. It's incumbent upon us to learn about what we are advocating for. So then we can be better prepared to make a difference specifically within our own networks. Whenever anyone asks me what is something that they can do to make a difference. And I say, you can resist. When someone, whether it's a family member over a holiday meal, or it's, um, a friend, someone is perpetuating an untruth that you know now to be an untruth about, uh, the, you know, about the immigrant population. Um, and that, while yes, I agree that it can sometimes be easier just to like, I just don't want to, I don't want to get into conflict. I don't want to get into whatever. Let me just. But, you know, now that you know better, try and pass that message along. Don't be, you know, you don't need to be strident about it. You can do it in your own way. You can do it however, but don't, don't be accepting of it because then it will perpetuate. Right. And now I want to give you the tools so that you can, you can resist it where it's starting in your own community. Um, and I think that that is, uh, that's, that's why I love the work that specifically we get to do, um, at AISES, my, the team that I work with, um, gets to do. It's about how do we, how do we use, how do we leverage the micro stories, right, of a, of a, of a client experience, um, to shed light on a macro problem, right, um, macro issue, um, how do we help elucidate some of the complexities that exist? For example, there's a situation right now where, um, we're working with. A client, uh, who, uh, fled Nicaragua, um, uh, depending upon different reports, anywhere from 15 to 35 percent of, um, Nicaraguans, uh, born each year do not have a birth certificate, um, and, um, so he is one of those, um, that do not have a birth certificate, and so he was denied asylum, ordered to be deported, but has been in ICE immigration prison for a year. Over a year now, 13 months now, horrible because Nicaragua won't accept him back because he doesn't have a birth certificate. And so you don't think about that, right? But it's just like, so then he's just, is he forever, he's forever stuck in the crosshairs of bureaucracy too now, right? What is the solution for that? That's the thing is that there are no clear cut solutions. And so the, you exhaust every legal option, every advocacy option, and then it still ends up getting stuck in sort of, uh, government bureaucracy, um, uh, in, uh, in a way that, that, that makes you want to literally cry. Um, because. Here's a man who was fleeing for his life and yes, still even would be open to returning in lieu of just staying in jail for forever. And yet there's nothing that you can do except for, I mean, continue to advocate. I mean, I think that that's the beauty of the work that we're able to do that our attorneys are able to do. Um, that. We, from an external affairs standpoint, are able to do, um, to continue to elevate to amplify these, um, these stories in order to be able to, to apply every type of legal and public sort of persuasion tactic and pressure we can, um, to be able to investigate, you know, what are the, you know, does this fall within the lines of, of, of unlawful imprisonment? Right? Because, um, so few relatively have Have these tireless advocates on their behalf, right? And so, um, it's another reason why we've, we've all become quite, you know, quite ardent supporters of a universal representation model at the end of the day, because, again, most people don't realize that. an immigration court, you have no right to an attorney. And, um, our colleagues have seen young two, three year olds being expected to represent themselves in immigration court. It's, it really feels like it's made up. When I tell people, they just don't believe it. Like, how can that, how can that even be possible? And yes, it is. Yeah, and And then I also don't blame people. And sometimes, because sometimes you just need to disassociate, right? I mean, because there are so many, sometimes it feels like the world's on fire and I get it, I get it. Um, but what I would also say is that, look, I would look at, I would look at how you see this in, in, in different areas right now from a policy perspective, but if you think the transgression of ones like human and legal rights, if you think that. It's just going to be towards a specific population, right? Um, and that it's never going to affect you. You're, you're wrong. Um, and I think that specifically within immigration, what we're able to see up close is that it's one of the most intersectional issues when it comes to social justice, you know, right, right. So it's the If you, if it is mad, like John Oliver was talking about just how broken the immigration system is from having gone through it. So if the white, the affluent white man who, who had Hollywood behind him, it's, it's broken. Believe me, it's broken. Yeah. And, um, just imagine how that's compounded when you add on. Being a person of color being a member of the LGBTQ community, you know, just continue, but just and and you see it, you see it in the bond rates, right? Like, for the last since 2018 so much of the funding that we received in that moment. We put towards a bond fund where we spent about just about 20Million dollars. We've spent on, um, bonds to release people from immigration prison, um, people from. Individuals from African and Caribbean nations, the median bond rates consistently when we look at all of our data over the last five years has been 50 percent higher than bond rate for anyone else. Um, and so you don't, it's. We also, in the same way of like, yeah, we like the good and the bad or the, you know, the right and the wrong, it's also a lot of times is that we silo everything off and we don't recognize that it's, um, that actually, no, like that it's, uh, you're not just an immigrant, you're everything else. And all those lived experiences. That also add up to that, and you are then treated accordingly based upon systemic oppressions, um, that have long existed in the U. S. and elsewhere. Yeah, no, you're, you're totally right. I mean, for, I mean, for me, practicing for so many years, representing individuals who are from Europe as well, who are professionals or external ability, you know, it's also not that easy for them. For everybody else, it's infinitely more difficult, but in the end, the policies are. Also racist and, and I mean, and we saw that happen with Ukraine and at the border. You know, with us volunteering and trying to get the Central Americans and trying to get the Asians and the Haitians in, and then the war happens, the Ukrainians are walking in. And again, I'm glad they were able to do that. That's not what I'm saying. I'm glad they were able to do that. But that also proved that we had a system that could work, that the government had a system that could work to bring in tens of thousands of, of, of individuals when For You know, when they wanted to, so that was really in our face. And that's kind of a story that I tell people now, you know, and, and in the media, I blame the media as well, just in terms of, um, always right. Always blaming the people of color, like, oh, those black people are coming in. I mean, it's just. It's it's really, really horrible, but oh, man, we can go on and on, but I'll tell you, it says, put a finer point on on Ukraine. Um, I agree. I hold that up as I'm like, well, look, this is a standard, right? We're saying that this is something that we are capable of. Um. This is a standard that we should set that everyone should be treated with such respect and such dignity. So it's not taking something away from, I'm not, I'm saying like, no, like, it is, it is, uh, I'm not saying, oh, they're the lucky ones. I'm saying, gosh, how can we center the humanity of everyone in the way that we saw? Um, again, they're always going to be exceptions to the rule, right? Like, so I'm not saying that every experience was blissful. Um, but I'm just saying, um, again, sort of the construct that was created, um, was one that was less denigrating, um, than some others. And we've seen that. Also, specifically within, they came under a humanitarian parole program, same as, you know, Afghans before them had come in under a humanitarian parole program. By the way, Afghans still do not have, there's no Afghan Adjustment Act. Um, their status has not been, um, they have no permanent status. Um, uh, the majority of, uh, the current administration was able to extend their humanitarian, their, their ability to renew humanitarian parole. Uh, otherwise, um, The vast majority, um, as of September would have been deported. Uh, so again, let's bring it back to full circle back to like 9 11 from the beginning of our conversation. So like a country that we completely devastated and then handed back the keys to, um, uh, the Taliban and that we're saying, Hey, yeah, go back. Um, so, uh, but then humanitarian parole also is the Uh, program, uh, that had been created for, um, this year for the, the metering program of Cuban, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans, um, shorthand CHNV, uh, where Texas is leading litigation, um, on, you know, behalf of 21 states, uh, against, uh, the Department of Homeland Security for this humanitarian parole program. Um, The states no one filed litigation against the Ukrainian humanitarian parole program. Um, it was specifically for the humanitarian parole program for Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, Venezuelans. Wow. Oh, wow. Faisal, you are I can honestly listen to you all day. It's amazing. Thank you so much for I can feel your passion. Um, for this work. How can people who want to volunteer or donate? How can they get involved? Really appreciate that. And just go to our website. So that is Texas dot org. So R. A. I. C. E. S. Texas fully spelled out dot org, and it will be easily accessible how to sign up to volunteer, um, the training that we can give you as well, uh, as well as, um, the ability to make a donation and also just to learn more. Uh, again, I'm a real big believer that. People have listened to this podcast. Hopefully they walk away knowing a little bit more than they did before. Um, uh, and that's, uh, they unlock also their passion for learning. And we'll also look at with a little bit of suspicion next time they see a headline. Yeah. Yeah, totally, totally. Well, thank you. Thank you so much Faisal for your time and your dedication to this work And I hope in the future you can come back. Thank you. I really appreciate it This podcast is intended for general education and informational purposes only and should not be regarded as either legal advice or a legal opinion You should not act upon or use this publication or any of its contents for any specific situation. Recipients are cautioned to obtain legal advice from their legal counsel with respect to any decision or course of action contemplated in a specific situation. Clark Hill PLC and its attorneys provide legal advice only after establishing an attorney client relationship through a written attorney client engagement agreement. This recording does not establish an attorney client relationship with any recipient.